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The Crime of Being Nice

January 10, 2013

Not back into my routine yet so posting will be slow and sporadic. Truth be told.. i almost hung it up. Blogging’s is a hobby for me, not a career. I fit it in where i can.

However…

nice-guy

I’ve caught onto this whole thing about the NiceGuys of OKCupid tumblr (which is now down for the count)… and it really kinda just pissed me off. Pissed me off enough to write about (and give me enough vigor to go back and pump out some more)

I don’t truly have much to say except that ‘privilege’ or more specifically ‘female privilege’ gives these people the right to continue to assail ‘nice guys’.

[M3: ok thats a lie. apparently i have a lot to say.. and from Rolo's post, it appears that it was beta infighting white knights who built the Tumblr page, not feminists. Same diff.]

A good write up here by Toy Soldiers.

More awesome stuff from The Rational Male.

And the hits just keep on coming from The Redpill Room

I’m pissed because i see a bunch of dumb cunts ignorant privileged princess’s rushing off to pillory and malign a lot of guys who simply for the sake of not being really high on the attraction level, are not successful with women and are simply venting about why it seems that ‘when they do what women say they want’ they get no traction, but see the same women who says what they want, continue to go after the complete opposite.

Sound familiar? Yeah.

And it chaff’s my balls to no end that the only reason.. THE ONLY REASON, these guys are being mocked is because they had the fucking audacity to actually see the women they were trying to speak with as human beings with interests and feelings rather than walking vagina’s and pump and dump bait.

That’s right. They’re being portrayed as the misogynist’s. Only in the fucking land of feminism does Tucker Max end up looking like an honest decent stand up guy because hey, he wasn’t being an misogynistic NiceGuy trying to get laid. Because Tucker dispensed with any ideas of actually.. you know.. wanting to look at these women as human beings with feelings and interests and anything other than a walking pussy. Those fucking evil NiceGuys.

It’s like i keep needing to stress this point. If you are a guy, who is looking at a woman’s profile and seeing if you share common goals or interests, or are genuinely interested in learning more about a woman and go to great lengths and effort time and again to interact with them like humans.. well then.. you’re a misogynist. Why? Because not NiceGuys don’t care. They start with ‘hookup culture’ script and move in for the pussy slay first. Then they might care afterwards.. so long as the bitch make’s’m a sammich.

“OHHHH noes, you got it all wrong. Those ebil NiceGuys are ebil because they pretend to be nice to get into our pants! It’s their strategy to fuck us! That’s why they’re ebil!”

You. Stupid. Fucking. Bint.

Let me let you in on a little secret.

We all want water, we’re driven to seek it out and drink it. Now given the choice between drinking muddy diseased african water with ebola in a rusty can vs. drinking pure, cold, glistening brita filtered water in a frosty crystal glass, most guys will want to drink the latter, especially when they’re thirsty. Tho you can tell a lot about a guy whether he will elbow, butt, kick and stomp every other dude around him just to get to the water, gulp it down and smash the glass on the floor like spiking a football whilst nah nahing all the other thirsty shleps vs. the guy who will not run roughshod over others, take the time to appreciate the craftsmanship of the glass and sip and savour the water and think about how cool and refreshing that water feels and appreciate the great qualities that water contains.

Both are strategies for getting water. Apparently we are to revile the latter and encourage more gulping goblet smashers.

And then there are those who would say “Fuck you picky bastard, go drink the ebola water, it deserves to be drank too!”.. but only women can openly say that in public.

But i think i’ve made my point. If you are single, and pretty consider every guys actions ‘a strategy’ whether you like it or not.

You see, recently at The Woman and the Dragon, a revelation was stumbled upon by Deti and confirmed by untold dozens of others including myself that a guys brain is a supercomputer capable of determining within a nanosecond whether or not he can see himself sexually with a woman.

We’re not programmed to know in a micro second whether or not we’d be great friends or share the same interests in art or music. What we do know is if we want to stick our dick inside of you and leave our baby butter in. This is our ‘evolved’ brain.

So what is OKC or PoF? Well.. beyond being complete fucking cesspool’s of solipsistic zombies and attention seeking whores a place where females go to seek male validation, it’s also colloquially known a “DATING SITE“. And what are people’s primary motivations for joining a “DATING SITE“? Well slap me with a trout and call me sally while scratching my back with a hacksaw.. i do believe dating sites are where people go looking to find romantic involvement with the opposite sex. Are we connecting the dots yet….?

When a guy sends a girl a message on a dating site, there is one certain truth.

HE CAN ENVISION HAVING SEX WITH YOU.

So take the message as a compliment for starters. But that’s not the issue here. The issue is the crime the ‘NiceGuy’ is committing. And if i read enough NiceGuy complaints (which i certainly can relate to being a reformed NiceGuy, but a NiceGuy no more) i can tell you one thing with absolute assuredness. The main reason you see the NiceGuy crying out in public is because he is wasting a severe amount of time actually doing the following:

  • reading the woman’s profile
  • taking stock of her interests and the commonalities they share
  • taking her at her word she’s ‘tired of the games’ and that she wants a ‘nice, kind hearted man’
  • formulating a well thought out response, usually more than 2 paragraphs.. more than just ‘Hey u, r u DTF lolz!
  • seeing her as a human being with aspirations, goals, dreams and not solely as a sexual object
  • wanting to make a connection with a woman beyond the physical in an effort to sublimate himself to the female imperative

Now.. NiceGuys do often tend to punch above their weight, and they do often tend to go into ‘rescue mode’ (remember kids.. rescue puppies, not broken women) because they see the plight of the good looking girl who tirelessly complains about why there are ‘no good guys‘ (these bitches should get their own Tumblr, see my comment here) and ‘where have all the decent men gone‘.. and he’s ready to show her a world of love, care and honest companionship that her life is apparently devoid of. As if these bints were ‘ENTITLED’ to a relationship.

If ONLY she would just give him a chance.

But that chance never comes… because for all that non-misogynistic thinking of trying to get to know the girl and putting serious effort into opening up a dialogue with these women.. efforts JerseyShoreJohnySixPack never bothers with, they are met with…

silence1

After many unsuccessful attempts, the bar will begin to lower, and further attempts will be made on a scale leading towards punching at the appropriate weight class.. and as the silence continues it’s deafening scream.. our sweet little NiceGuy will start punching a little below his weight, all the while still pouring out his time, effort and patience trying to relate with the qualities and traits contained within the woman’s profile, trying frantically to create a connection with a woman on a level of deeper meaning and not just pure animalistic pump&dumpery. And our poor little NiceGuy will never know why but will eventually begin to conclude what even OKCupids studies have shown us. That he is one of the upwards of 80% of guys who are ‘unattractive’ and invisible.

Saying all the right things leaves you unheard and unnoticed. Say the wrong thing, something that goes against the femcentic worldview.. and you will be noticed and marked for destruction.

I want you to understand this little bit very carefully…

These women are getting their panties in a knot because these guys are voicing out loud that women are NOT interested in having guys trying to relate to them based on interests or sincere attempts to be inquisitive about a woman. These creatures that thrive off the bullying of NiceGuys (funny how it wasn’t funny when Amanda Todd was driven to kill herself by being bullied) continually unload on these hapless guys who are simply venting their frustrations in an almost pathetic attempt, a Hail Mary gambit, hoping “the one” girl out there reading his profile will be so moved by his plight, she will introspect and examine whether or not she acts in such a manner described, vows to end her badboy chasing ways and embrace the hopeless romantic.

And one wonders which romcom script playbook they’re following when they do that. You know, the one where dorky guy wins the girl in the end?

Let me add this caveat. Sure, lot’s of nice guys COULD use a lot of work. Lot’s of nice guys SHOULD actually stop pedestalizing the vagina and do their own thing instead of projecting ‘creepy’ ‘beta’ ‘neediness’.

However, shit like NICEGUYS of OKC goes one step too far and demonizes and further isolates guys who for a majority of the time are simply stating what we in the sphere already know.

hypergamy in a pic

Which makes me want to take the gloves off. I’ve always been hesitant to pile onto the fat shaming thing. Pointing out that fat is unattractive is one thing, being cruel about it is another. Even i have jumped on the bandwagon from time to time speaking of landwhales and crisco masses, but only to drive a point, not to make someones life more miserable. With the exception of one post about Fat acceptance.. i’ve never gone full tilt against those who are less fortunate in the looks department unless they arrogantly stand up and tell me that i am wrong for not finding the grotesque attractive.

“BUT M3, isn’t that what the girls/mangina’s/whiteknights doing? Going full tilt against NiceGuys who say that girls should be attracted them for being nice?”

I would ALMOST agree with you save for one minor niggle.

1. Culturally it is acceptable to shame guys for being shallow to overlook fatties great personalities
2. No guy puts on their profile header that they’re looking for a really great fat/plump/few extra pounds/plus sized/bbw person (unless it’s their fetish)

Women are not culturally shamed and called shallow for ignoring beta’s or omega’s, and it really doesn’t take a lot of searching to find a woman’s profile looking for ‘a nice, honest guy who doesn’t play games’. These women are actively portraying, displaying and advertising the need for NICE guys. This is the crux of the matter. The needy nice guy IS the obese girl. A mirror analogy. Both want a relationship. Both have problems they need to work on before any real expectation of one should happen. But no man is advertising how badly he’s looking for plus sized BBW’s really badly! No guy says he’s tired of the hotties and looking to settle down with something more rotund. No man says he’s tired of the bar scene and just wants to lay in the pudgy arms of a soft marshmellow woman. At least what men advertise is quantifiable. Women advertise all the things they want (from their alpha) but never come out and say that they first want the hot guy to hit them with douchebaggery so they can ‘win him over’.. no they simply put out a tiny blurb, like legal fine print by including the words ‘physical attraction’ or ‘not perfect, just perfect for me’ in their profile. That right there pretty much invalidates everything else they asked for because they’re not looking for it from Joe Average.

New Years Eve i cracked a joke to my best man about how there’s only one thing i really want in a woman (besides me).. and i said ‘really long legs‘ with a wry grin. Both of them looked at each other, mouths agape and then turned towards me in disgust. The next thing i know, he and his wife are scolding me on how i should look for someone a little more comely, down to earth, maybe someone not so hot (read ugly) who won’t be the apple of anyone’s eye but mine so i can trust her and appreciate her and how her personality and brains are more important and blah blah blah blah… from a fucking sarcastic joke. No no no Mike, no need for you to be attracted to her, just look past that.

DO WOMEN DO THIS TO EACH OTHER ABOUT JOHNY6PACK????

No, they create fucking TUMBLR pages to deride and destroy NiceGuys and whatever hope and humanity these guys have left in them like a bunch of bullying fucking trolls. They would never consider doing a page like that for overweight, obese, unfeminine, feminist, trollish, short haired pixie cut, high N slutbag bitch’s who cry about why they can’t get a relationship? Where’s THAT TUMBLR PAGE??

Complaining about “WHERE ARE ALL THE GOOD MEN?”… BRAHHHHH – questioning the motives of the men you dated = NotNice Girl
.
Asking men to “STOP PLAYING GAMES”… BRAHHHH – whining and complaining about men’s sexual/commitment choices = NotNice Girl
.
Crying that guys get up and leave when you reveal your slut number?…. BRAHHH – feeling entitled to a relationship while ignoring mans right to evaluate your worthiness based on his criteria = NotNiceGirl
.
Decrying men as dogs who can’t appreciate a full figured woman?… BRAHHHHH – judging a man’s visual acuity / natural arousal by unreal feminist social construct = NotNice Girl
.
Writing lengthly articles about Peter Pan men and manning up?… BRAHHHH – feeling entitled to benefits of men assuming traditional gender roles, bodies and production = NotNice Girl
.
Complaining that men are commitment-phobes?… BRAHHHH – NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO SE… err.. A RELATIONSHIP. Put that in your pipe and smoke it princess.

Every woman who complains in any way whatsoever about men who don’t pick them for the special snowflakes they are and feel entitled to being in a relationship because they’re so fucking awesome and like have a degree in English and like know how to bake vegan cookies and like is a foodie and stuff and like duh…

NOT-NICE GIRL.
It’s your ass that should be displayed on a website showing what a vapid narrow thinking bitch you are for feeling you are entitled to anything from men, from the way you dress, to the way you talk, to the way you present yourself.. it’s all a strategy to land the best mate possible for you to pop your fucking future kids out which requires getting into his pants. So you’re batting your eyelashes, laughing at his jokes, baking him cakes, making him lunch, giving him blowjobs.. it’s all just ‘being nice’ in the hopes he commits to you, puts a ring on it and finally pumps you full of it to help you squeeze out a fetus down the road.

[but only if he's an Alpha guy worth chasing of course]

When i was in highschool, i defended those who were picked on by the privileged. As i was one of those who was picked on and nearly driven to suicide by it, i recognize it’s not cool to dump on those less fortunate in some lame attempt to build yourself up in the eyes of others. And that’s what the fuckers of NGoOKC did. And that’s why i’m fucking fuming.

In the end, these guys were tried in public for the crime of voicing frustration to the duplicity of ‘what women say they want is different then what they actually want’. They weren’t after sex, they were after relationships. If all they wanted was sex, they’d go to a prostitute. Or they’d learn the dark arts and go on a pump and dump spree. So many comments in the sphere amount to “These bitches aren’t worth the time, i’d never put in that much effort, he must really genuinely want a relationship.” And time and again, they were passed over for a relationship by the very women who “expressed” the greatest interest in one, looking for someone who wanted to treat them like people, not objects.

Yet… silence…

These were guys who for the most part, wanted a meaningful relationship with a woman as a path towards sex, not just seeking out sex only. A means to an end, not an end in and of itself. And they got crucified for it. I certainly hope this keeps getting more coverage. Every NiceGuy out there needs to be tried and convicted. Just like the marriagestrike required many men to be destroyed and humiliated before marriage became unpalatable, so too will NiceGuys continue to need to be publicly abused before the ‘niceness’ becomes something to be avoided at all costs.

And oh what a day that will be for woman, when there are no more ‘nice’ men.

..

Side note.. some of the things the NiceGuys said were quite nasty but obviously taken out of context. But what i really noticed was the constant use of the survey questions added into the photos for maximum effect like guys answering YES to “Are there any circumstances where you would not allow your partner to do something?” or some shit like that as if to show WOW this guy is one hell of an oppressing woman hating douche for not letting her do what she wants. Funny, that’s how i answered the question.. because i certainly would not allow my spouse to:

  • drive drunk
  • hit on other men either sexually or with fists
  • purchase a new wardrobe and dinette set on our debit card while we’re in the line of credit
  • buy her 20th pair of shoes
  • physically assault me
  • shove a lava lamp up my ass during sex
  • etc..

Pretty fucking disingenuous of these tardicons, the whole lot of them.

The others are just as bad.

If you’re traditional, Christian,  captain/1st officer redpill aware, or simply keen to the fact that women enjoy being led and not leading during Salsa, then you would obviously answer Yes to thinking men should be the head of the household. Or maybe you simply realize that strong independent empowered women still look for men who make more than them and dump kitchen bitches on their way to Eat Pray Love. In any case, answering yes does not mean you’re “Not Nice”

If you are a heterosexual man without a fetish for monkey sex, you generally want your woman to keep a clean feminine appearance which means grooming. Obligation is a strong word, but the implication is obvious. You expect them to shave when appropriate to look good for you, as reciprocity demands. Answering YES to saying women are obligated to shave does not make you not a Nice Guy any more so than any woman expecting their man to wear a suit and tie to a formal event getting mad that he chose to go in a Snuggie make her not a Nice Girl. In fact, don’t carry any expectations for me not to end up looking Charles Manson as i let my stringy unwashed mullet grow out to match my Rabbinical dreads as i loaf around the house in my torn up plaid sweater and see through saggy tighty whities with dirt under my fingernails. Want me to take a shower? Fuck you you not so nice Nice Girl. I’m not obligated to let you oppress me.

Answering Not Acceptable to ‘The idea of gay and lesbian couples having children’ is not an indication of a person’s nice/not niceness.. it is a moral stand and principled statement. I dunno, I don’t have a single fucking problem with gays having/adopting kids. I think they do a better job in some cases. Having said that, someone else’s moral stance is perfectly acceptable. I don’t really feel like a woman should have/be entitled to have children if she’s a crystal meth smoking welfare case having sex for money with random dudes in a motel. Does my having a opinion on that make me… wha? Nice Guy or a NotNice Guy?

Answering Yes to “Any circumstances where someone is obligated to have sex with you?” kind of makes you sound like a rapist don’t it. Well.. except when you, i dunno.. get married.  I’ve been told that if you’re not fucking, you’re just friends. But what do i know. Granted, that doesn’t mean that your obligation is right here, right now, right this second.. but it’s generally assumed that if you’re married, having sex comes part and parcel with the whole marriage deal. Anyone who claims otherwise i’m sure will understand that commitment in an LTR/marriage is also NOT an obligation.. so fellas, feel free to ditch your wife/s.o. for a quickie with your neighbor, coworker, stripper, prostitute. Obligations just suck donkey balls.

The last one is a personal fave, but requires a NO to be used. That’s where these guys screwed up. The question on the survey is “Is a girl who’s slept with 100 guys a bad person.” This one demands a no. Because we’re not here to condemn the slut for her life choices, as long as she can live with it openly and honestly. So the answer is a resounding NO. And in the comment box you add “..but there ain’t no way in hell i’m going to wife that slut up. I don’t want to be #101. I’d feel as special as you if you knew i married and left 100 women before proposing to you!” Problem solved.

186 comments

  1. This one pissed me off, as well.

    If one needs any further evidence of the rationalization hamster, or the feminine imperative, here it is.

    Nice guys are actually dicks. Dicks are actually the nice guys.

    We have reached critical mass.

    You officially have no reason to care anymore.

    See that abyss? Gaze into it.

    We’ll come back to get you when you’re thinking clearly.


  2. You will probably get a kick out of this post of mine from awhile back:

    http://stonerwithaboner.wordpress.com/2012/08/08/is-she-a-sexually-entitled-nice-girl-tm/


  3. also, this is another article that tries to tackle the “nice guy” dynamic…

    http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2011/03/08/is-%E2%80%9Cconfident%E2%80%9D-the-male-analog-to-%E2%80%9Cthin%E2%80%9D-noh/

    I think one of the things that’s not talked about is that men are expected to “approach” and take “risky initiatives” whereas women expect that they can sit back and wait for their ideal suitor. I think that’s one of the reasons why guys can be labelled “creepy.”


  4. and it just can’t be said enough that feminist’s like Futrelle, Schwyzer and Marcotte are bullies-or should I say bullies ™ who get a kick out of hurting men with poor social skills…

    http://stonerwithaboner.wordpress.com/2011/08/29/arguing-with-david-futrelle/


  5. Great article M3, going to add it into my next Best of the Manosphere on ‘nice guys’.


  6. [...] M3 lays it out here – The Crime Of Being Nice [...]


  7. It’s confusing to be a person, not even just a man It has to actually be extremely confusing to be a woman too with all those hamsters pushing and pulling in every direction.

    I sometimes doubt that this whole ideology will collapse. I mean how can feminism and whorishness really collapse? But there is more and more of this crap everyday. I think that the femmy blogs like Jezzie, Huffpo, and Slate are actually speeding things along with instant shaming and contradictory news stories everyday.

    MGTOW really makes a lot of sense. Why give a crap, just let the women run themselves crazy and watch the whole thing collapse.


  8. No joke…I treat a couple female coworkers like the misogynist that I am. Another guy at work says that I treat women with disrespect. One of the gals even rationalized that my act was all a “joke”. (Which I didn’t respond to, I just smiled) They told me that I was the best and smartest guy they work with.

    Talk to the hindbrain gentlemen…listening to the forebrain is what will do you in.


  9. Besides nice guys really are liars…and we all know women hate liars. I’d rather be dumped because I’m a dominating asshole because that is what a man truthfully and biologically is.


  10. I read the entire tumblr as of this past Friday…no idea if it’s up anymore. The very sad thing is, so many of these guys were ones I knew from Middle and High School. Not literally, mind you, I simply knew/was friends with that type of guy a lot of the time.

    These are the guys who would come to me upset, seeking condolences, wanting to glean knowledge from me that I did not really possess. I did my best to comfort them, but as I’m “one of the guys”, I didn’t understand other women either. (Still don’t, if I want to be honest.) They couldn’t understand why, after paying for movie tickets/dinners/jewelry/etc and helping to move entire apartments worth of stuff/lending their car/being a shoulder to cry on/etc…none of these girls ever asked them out.

    Which, in my later school years, I finally came to realize was a lot of the problem. When these menfolk began relationships with these womenfolk…they did it as friends…not as a romance. If they had started the relationship with “Hey, I think you’re nice and good looking. I’d love to get to know you better, and maybe go on a date or two where I’ll be a traditional, chivalrous gentlleman. What do you say?”then right off the bat, the woman would’ve known what he was after.

    Instead, the relationships ALWAYS started as “I think you’re nice and good looking. Want to just hang out?” Immediate issue here! By saying you only want a casual relationship, she will automatically put you in the “Friend” column, in bright red pen. It is possible to get out of it, but you’d probably only have a 1% chance. Why? Because now you are a woman.

    I know, you’re not REALLY a woman. But by starting off the relationship asking to be a friend…rather than asking to be a friend who may turn into a boyfriend…she immediately begins to think of you as a male version of a girl friend. One who just happens to have a penis, and no period to complain about. Just as the typical heterosexual female OR male wouldn’t consider sleeping with their same sex friends…now this female will not consider sleeping with this opposite sex friend, precisely because HE IS SUCH A GOOD FRIEND. Now, if the relationship had started out the other way, he would only be penciled into the “Friend”column…she knows that he has other feelings for her, and will take that into account when making plans with him and/or other friends.

    It took me years of watching other people’s fails and successes to come to these conclusions. If I wasn’t a woman who was “one of the guys” I doubt I’d have been able to see it at all. This also explains why the Fems get so upset about NiceGuys…it SEEMS like they are saying “women aren’t good enough as friends, they have to be fuckable too”. While I’m sure some douches DO think this way, that is not what the perpetually friend zoned NiceGuy is saying…he is saying that he tried very hard to have meaningful/loving relationships with women he respected, and feels taken advantage of since he ACTED like her boyfriend without ACTUALLY BEING her boyfriend.

    Maybe someone should tell all these NiceGuys to be a little more up front when starting their relationships. That’s what I did, and my advice worked…three of my friends took it, and are married to suitable women and have beautiful babies. I don’t want that sort of life, but I’m incredibly happy for them and their spouses!

    What to take away from all of this? When a woman doesn’t know you want more (eventually) she will automatically friend zone you, and think of you as a male girlfriend or a cool brother. If you want to have a chance of getting laid, DON’T start off without her knowing ALL your feelings!


  11. I agree with a lot of what you’re saying but i want to stress an important part here where you wrote:
    “When these menfolk began relationships with these womenfolk…they did it as friends…not as a romance.”

    Feminism browbeat men into being ashamed of making romantic moves towards a woman, because the obvious inclination was that it’s about sex. Yes, if men asked right away from the start “Hey you’re cute, let’s go out on a DATE and see if we click” that would be met with instant YES/NO and then the man would be free to walk away with a NO answer.

    Feminism said “HEY you can’t do that, you gotta be there for women and be nice for the sake of being nice. Only thinking about women for sex only eh’ you animals, dogs, led by your dicks. Savages. A woman is more than a vagina. Get to know her first!”

    In all the language feminism used to beat men with, shame them from making their ‘romantic’ intentions known, and force them down the friends first/lovers second path.. they sealed the fate of untold millions of guys into LJBF emotional supplication whoring. We were told the best way to get that romantic relationship was to start by interacting with women as friends (human beings) and to shelve our sexual instincts and intentions.

    So when Game or PUA’s teach guys to go for the jugular and seek out only those who respond directly to open sexual interest so there can be no ambiguity as to what is being requested by the man (a sexual, not platonic relationship) then the femcunts go nuts! “YOU ONLY SEE WOMEN AS FUCKTOYS YOU MISOGYNIST”

    Somehow, it always ends up back in the feminists laps. They are a self perpetuating catastrophe. Everything they touch turns to shit and find someone else to blame for their stupidity. They teach men how to be betachump doormats and then complain about their own handiwork. They teach men to avoid being honest and open with their intentions and then blame men for not being open and honest. It’s like they spend their lives building Frankenstein and then mock their own creation.


  12. I never understood the perspective that a guy is a “bad person” because he wants to be physically attracted to his sexual partner(s) How dare he not want to be repulsed by the person he is fucking? And God forbid a man have any expectations regarding the moral caliber of a woman! Or admit that he has the desire to be the leader in his relationship! How evil of him to expect femininity. How crass of him to be…gasp…masculine! Yet women are allowed to have pages and pages of requirements regarding height, occupation, financial status, or whatever else they feel entitled to in a partner…without being made to feel shallow or unreasonable. I’m a woman and feel just as disgusted by this double standard as you do. I realize it’s little consolation that a small portion of women exist that actually respect and appreciate men, but they do.


  13. There’s an old Chinese saying, It may have come from Sun Tzu’s writings. We should hear it again at this moment, when discussing this very subject.

    “Never interrupt your enemy when they’re making a mistake.”

    The more women alienate nice guys the more nice guy/betas, which make up the largest portion of men, realize they’ve been conned.


  14. Very true, Gwen.

    I appreciate and share your point of view. People of either sex should be able to form honest, open relationships…whether they are romantic, platonic, or sexual. Personally, I don’t care if a couple is female dominant, male dominant, equal or anything in between. So long as the couple is happy with how things are and don’t keep unnecessary secrets from each other…it’s all good.


  15. I agree with you, M3.

    I was already typing a lot, so I didn’t want to get into the backstory of WHY I was seeing what I described. In my own life, I’ve gotten to the point where if a man asks to go out with me, *I’ll* be the blunt one and ask him if he’s wanting a friendship or sex.

    Usually I’ll get a hemhaw response of “Well, I’d love to get to know you more before saying”, or a “I’ve always been told friendships are priority”.

    No. Don’t give me that, it’s not what I asked. I don’t have the time or patience for doublespeak or mindgames. Tell me now, so no one gets hurt; Sex or Friend?
    At this point, 95% of them say “Sex”. Now I can tell them that I’m sorry, I’m already content with my lover and have no desire for other men in my body presently. If they are the 5% that say “Friend”, sure I’m up for that.

    I hate that I have to be so blatant about this…but if it’s the only way to avoid hurting someone, I’ll keep doing it as long as it takes.

    Interesting side note…I’m not “looking” for more sexual partners, but when a guys walks into the room, I’ll make an automatic decision about whether I would have slept with him or not. I don’t know if I’m a small percentage of female who does this, or if the majority is lying. Just thought it was odd.


  16. Man, M3, yer starting to remind me of the rightfully famous line from Sargeant Barnes in “Platoon”: “There’s the way it ought to be, and there’s the way it is. Elias was full of shit. Elias was a crusader…”

    M3 is a crusader because he survived beta hell and knows how hurtful and terrible that place is. I get that. But trying to change women’s nature is not going to help women or betas. Perhaps the best thing in the world for betas is to be shamed, since that might cause some to alter their behavior. Yes, in a perfect world, the nice guys would finish first and women would hate mysoginistic jerks. And dogs would never lose their puppy breath! And surfing the internet all day would make me insanely rich!! And I would have stopped aging at 30!!!

    Let it go buddy. Let. It. Go. Just accept the way things are and use that new found knowledge to your benefit. And don’t lump all women into the crap category. I found a perfect gem, on Plenty of Fish, if you can believe that! A Canadian from Ontario! Dating sites are a tool to meet wimnz, it is up to you to sort out the good from the bad. Can’t do that if you assume they are all terrible. Your welcome.


  17. I get what you’re saying, John, but truthfully M3′s blog is, I’m sure, very helpful to men who are still trapped in “beta hell”. I’ve sure learned a lot reading his blog, and others like it, about my own nature as a female. Being aware of my innate hypergamy has helped me be more careful in dating to not be a slave to my irrational attraction to alpha males and to be more open to considering guys I may have discounted before for reasons I didn’t fully understand. I see no harm in raising awareness about these issues and calling attention to the hypocrisy that exists. I do like what you said about not lumping all women into the crap category. If I’m capable of introspection, then any woman is


  18. John,

    M3 is not saying that every woman on the planet is horrible. The fact that he allows women to comment here, and has real conversations with us is proof of that. There ARE other blogs and websites where anyone who admits to being female is downvoted, mocked, banned or just made to feel awful for being born as a woman.

    I know…I’ve commented on some.

    I may not agree 100% with what M3 writes, but it cannot be denied that he provides a valuable outlet to menfolk who are needing to know they’re not alone in how they feel. I’m sure his words have also helped other women who aren’t high T like myself…sometimes people can open their eyes to how society has demanded they act, and then change for the better.

    If you’re not already a very “think for yourself” type, blogs like this are great for talking over different ideas and beliefs…even if you don’t accept all of them.


  19. Thats funny man. I actually wrote a long one tearing a girl down on okcupid for the exact kind of hypocrisy the ‘nice guys’ exhbited.

    http://eruditeknight.wordpress.com/2013/01/05/the-girls-of-okcupid-pt1/

    Making a fake girl profile on okcupid is a mindblowing experience. I recommend it for all.


  20. I also really like the okcupid girls that have a pic of them with tight, low cut dress and pushup bras or swimsuits and in their profile say something about hating guys for ‘judging me on my appearance’

    ahh the delusion of females…


  21. Anna I appreciate your comments, but I think John’s comment here is just trying to look out for M3′s state of mind. You can’t stay angry forever, or else you become exactly what most dyed-in-the-wool-blind-to-all-other-opinion-feminists-for-life are, i.e., useless to society.

    Men in general are raised to have a profound sense of the practical, and hate themselves when they feel they are useless. If M3 ever gets to a point where his anger overrides his sense of usefulness to society, he will abandon blogging (as any rational male would). That’s the concern.


  22. Has that really helped? Have you found yourself actively rejecting alphas for betas? I am (I think understandably) curious.


  23. You make some fair points. I’ll just say i’m not trying to fight women’s nature, i’m trying to shine a spotlight on it. They may hate beta’s and omega’s, so pointing it out helps keep beta’s and omegas from walking in eyes wide closed. Beta’s need to be told to change for the better if they want relationships, but a site like NGoOKC was not the appropriate vehicle. I’m not writing to stop women from dating misogynistic jerks, im writing for guys who step into the light for the first time and go ‘hooooooly shitballs.. this.. explains… my entire life!’

    I can stop blogging and just live for myself, but i like to think that for shitty things to keep happening, all it requires is for good people to do nothing. I can go live out my MGTOW or Nihilist dream. Every other sphere blogger could too.

    And there’s a sucker born every minute who needs to read this shit. That’s why i crusade.

    But yeah, i know NAWALT very well, tho i am deeply surprised you found an Ontarian.. i will bet dollars to donuts she’s not from Toronto or the GTA. Probably a more rural chick. Ask her what she thinks of girls attitudes in Tdot and see what she says.. id be interested to know!


  24. You, like a lot of other girls within the sphere continue to show that as much as most guys want to say NAWALT is a copout.. NAWALT does exist.

    You prove it.

    We just patiently wait till the day we can write it as AMOWALT (a majority of) :D


  25. I’m glad you feel welcome here. We don’t have to agree on 100% to discuss.

    I actually wish more women would come to discuss, even if they don’t agree. If the argument is logical, my mind can be swayed.

    I don’t play for Team Man.. i play for Team Logic.

    Spock and Shockwave are my mentors. Funny how they both have big ears :P


  26. You do know your Ontario wimenz. She is small town, but she did live and work in Toronto for awhile. Moved away to sunny medium town Florida so perhaps that saved her. Yeah, yer right, I should have known better than to speak discouragingly to one of the manosphere’s rising stars (I say that sincerely). I only wish I had taken the manosphere to heart while I was married. I used to read Sosouve etc. back then but I only looked at it as a way to pick up chicks, not stay married. I won’t make that mistake again…


  27. That is an understandable question. I think on some level I see all men as “alpha” because I was raised a fundamental Christian and men were automatically dominant by nature of their maleness. In the past, I would find myself more sexually attracted to men who were cocky or rude and I never understood why I was drawn to them when I knew they were pretty much assholes. Now I know that I’m attracted to those traits because I subconsciously interpret them as indicators of strength and masculinity. I’ve made a conscious effort to broaden my definition of what is masculine, what is strength. I don’t need a guy to be rich or handsome or arrogant or have some crazy muscles…if he’s responsible and smart and willing to lead, that’s incredibly sexy to me. I still have a strong desire for dominance in a partner. I just believe that most men have the capacity to display it, particularly if I’m appropriately feminine and comfortable being submissive.


  28. Most men have had the dominance beaten out of them. Seriously.. i tried having that conversation at work once with my colleagues.

    Each and every one of them (except for my short asian friend) looked at me like i wanted to send women back into the kitchen barefoot and preggers and make me a sammich.

    Being submissive/dominant is defacto oppression of woman unless it’s a consentual BDSM sex roleplay according to most people around these parts.

    Next time it comes up, ill ask the girl leading that train of thought if she enjoys leading the man during dance…


  29. Thanks for the linklove, man! Great piece. Shit like this makes me wish I was an absolute rock-abbed hardbody CEO driving a Bentley and hangs out at posh single’s bars and . . . who’s utterly gay.


  30. Anna,

    It’s not nearly so simple in practice. Making your desire known is a basic game concept, but in our modern SMP it’s a bit more complex than asking a girl on a date.

    I don’t know how old you are, but to the younger generation of girls, ‘date’ is a four-letter word. A ‘date’ is a joke.

    In practice, one has to walk the tightrope of making one’s sexual desire known, while downplaying any aspect that could be possibly construed as ‘serious’.

    A ‘date’ is an invitation into the friend zone. A date is cute and quaint and serious.

    Obviously, a man can’t present himself as a friend. He also can’t present himself as a boyfriend. There’s a very thin slice of nebulous gray area one has to work in, in the beginning stages.

    If one is just trying to get laid, it’s much easier.


  31. I’m 27. Found a good friend and lover at age 21…haven’t been on a date since. I certainly dated in High School, but never did anything more than kissing or hand holding. I wasn’t prudish, just really scared of physical/sexual affection.

    So, I’m sorry if what I say sounds overly simplified…I just prefer people to be blunt, open and honest. Keep it simple, in other words.


  32. I have always felt it’s unfair that in general women expect so much from a man yet they get indignant if they’re asked to “improve”.

    You’ll remember a few weeks ago I started working on losing weight, seriously. The guys in my professional-personal circle were SUPPORTIVE AS FUCK.

    Women are STILL GIVING ME SHIT:

    “Oh, any man that doesn’t want you isn’t really a man!”

    Bullshit. I am not living my best life possible with numerous chances for health problems over something that IS fixable. Obesity is fixable. Fuck this “real women have curves”. Curves, yes. Jello lumps everyfuckingwhere? No ma’am. I’m not asking a man to just fall all over a 250 pound woman. Fuck that.

    Now, getting down to say, 160? Yeah, you can talk a bit more about curves. I want to be strong, lift well, and take care of my body. Men notice that. What is wrong with saying that? It doesn’t hurt my feelings (used to, but I got over it. I started this journey at 335 pounds. Anything is possible…I can SEE my goals at the end of all of this.)

    Looks matter. My fellow females need to get over themselves.

    Ironically, this makes me think about the BULLSHIT I read on Jezebel about Jack Welch and his “poor wife” Carolyn…

    Um, what? “Well, she sacrificed her body to have four kids and he just trades her for a new wife when he’s on top of the world.”

    Incorrect. She got to enjoy 6 fucking years of him being a CEO to one of the world’s largest corporations. Poor Carolyn, my fucking ass. I’m a business minded woman, and I just shake my head at these “poor woman” commentaries.

    Marissa Mayer is now the CEO of Yahoo… too many damn articles about work life balance. You give that shit up when you become the boss of all bosses.

    Oh, what’s wrong, women? Mad you have to do what men have been doing for decades? Ohhhh, M3, I can’t even!

    And thanks for having us gals along to chime in. I learn more about the sphere and most importantly — how to truly take care of men.

    There’s so much that our mothers and grandmothers taught wrong when it comes to men, and ironically, I’ve learned a lot just reading through blogs in the sphere. the anger doesn’t bother me. Shit, a lot of us deserve it, IMO. Sheesh.


  33. Ack, nested comments hell. Bleh. And subscribed, because M3 is like crack. ;)


  34. I have to admit, I will occasionally make a profile on OKC and torment the women who have slutty pics but only want “intelligent down to earth guys”. Sometimes they are pretty funny in their replies. It’s amazing how they talk like total sluts – and seem proud of it. The question is do they act as bad as they talk!


  35. Hey CST.

    Sorry that your female coworkers are giving you a hard time/not being supportive. That must really suck, but at least you know to not let it get to you. I say, go you!

    I’m kind of in the same boat (of losing weight). My lover mentioned that I was getting a little pudgy, so I bought a scale for my home. I was shocked to learn I was 185 lbs, especially since I’m only 5’6″! That was in December, and as of today I’m 166 lbs. I want to be 150 by this time next month, since my BMI is perfect at that weight. It’s difficult to figure where I can cut calories since I’m a 13 yr vegetarian…but I’ve had great success with working out 4x a week.

    Anyway, here’s a fellow female saying “Good luck, and keep going! You owe it to yourself and any future boyfriends…healthy is happy”. :)


  36. @M3

    Well, that is the only time *I* am submissive…
    Lol


  37. Anna!!

    Thanks darling! I just am NOT down with this “oh, he’ll love you just the way you are” when I’m clearly unhappy. I pay more for clothes, I struggle to move around with ease… that’s not living, and there’s no slice of cake that is worth that shit.

    I love lifting. Lifting = freedom & clarity.

    Besides, I want more stamina for when he has me get on top. Zooom! :)


  38. Being a rather accomplished social dancer (salsa/swing), I will say that the only women I see leading on the dance floor are women leading other women. I never see women leading men, ever. In fact, the women come out specifically to be led on the dance floor by men. The interesting thing is, because interaction with men in a controllable fashion is guaranteed at social dance places, the social pressure to dress and behave like sluts is significantly reduced. As a result of this the women dress smart, practical AND sexy all at once (admittedly there is pressure to wear significant heels at salsa clubs, but they don’t go nuts with 5+ inches or anything like that). The women at social dance clubs are not near-naked with caked-on-makeup like you would see at your average meat-market hip-hop/house club.

    It was a real eye-opener when I took up Salsa dancing socially. Before that all I knew was the mountanous-deck-of-disadvantage-stacked-against-me hip-hop club. Healthy gender relations can go a long long way to help heal the incel (as I was).


  39. Ha! Now you’ve got it!
    You’re a lady after my own heart, CST. :)

    Just keep thinking of all the fun you’ll have, and how much more physically awesome/hot you’ll be…and don’t mind those other women. They are just threatened and jealous of your will to change. If they can’t be happy for you, who needs ‘em?


  40. I feel like telling you two girls to get a room…

    ..oh whats this? Mine is currently available!

    wakka wakka


  41. “Wakka wakka”?
    Lol, ok Fozzie…

    Seriously though, I’ll decline your gracious offer and take the implied compliment. Now, my break is over, so I’m off to sell more games to the masses.
    Have fun!


  42. Well done, sir. Bloody well done.

    Good on you for answering “long legs.” Since when did it become wrong to express a preference for an attractive woman? And I mean not just attractive to you, but attractive to other people as well. Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but some things are near-universal in their appeal: an attractive appearance, an engaging demeanor, and a healthy figure. So, it’s a crime for a man to actually value a woman’s appearance? The same people who castigate you for that are the ones clamoring for the Daniel Craigs of the world.


  43. @M3

    “Most men have had the dominance beaten out of them.” I know what you mean. And I get the same response you get when I bring up the concept of male dominance from males and females alike. Unless, of course, I’m talking about sexual dominance…THEN suddenly it’s OK. Of course, when my girlfriends describe the qualities they find sexy and attractive they include confidence, strength, decisiveness (dominant traits)…and they, of course, will bemoan the fact that there aren’t any “real men” out there. And I’m thinking maybe if we didn’t browbeat the very traits out of men that we find attractive that wouldn’t be a fucking problem. Sometimes I get exhausted trying to share my perspective because these feminist attitudes are so entrenched and they misinterpret me as saying women should be beaten and raped when I’m just trying to explain some biological and psychological truths.


  44. I don’t have a whole lot to add, because most folks have already said what’s on my mind. I’m late to the party.

    But

    “tardicons” made me giggle snort, so we are even. ;)


  45. It ALWAYS comes back to rape. It’s hard for me to engage anyone I know is a feminist (particularly on the interwebs) because they seem to pull it out like its the god of all magic words. RAPE, THEREFORE YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID! Even though we were talking about something that wasn’t even related to rape.


  46. LOL! Ain’t that the truth.

    And M3, you sly dog… I see what you did there, sir. :)

    I should probably have a shiny female name like Anna ;) Just little ol’ Lianne coming in late to the paaaarty ;)


  47. You’re most welcome. I love sharing great insight, needed knowledge and value added entertainment from across the sphere to my humble readership.


  48. Any man who gripes about “female entitlement” is just mad because he feels entitled to a female. It’s so funny how this article goes on and on about how men just care about sleeping with women and know that in a nanosecond and they’re hard wired that way and it’s our evolution and blablablablaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, but then when it comes to a woman doing the exact same thing with an “alpha male” these self-proclaimed “nice guys” get all butthurt.

    You don’t see ANY correlation between that and the whole concept of, “Guys like to screw sluts but marry nice chicks?” Yet, you don’t see droves of women encouraging each other to be bitchy sluts…I mean some people do, but not in the volume of men telling each other to be assholes and to distrust women and to use and abuse women.

    Of course, I realize what I’m doing right now is tantamount to talking to a turd. No matter what I say, it doesn’t change, but it hopes I get used to its stench. One day, you’ll realize the true source of all your misery….and here’s a hint: It’s not anyone else but you.


  49. Ahhh, my first bonafide Troll. I must be moving on up. I must ask.. are you really that stupid?

    Nowhere did i say these guys were ‘entitled’ to a female. NO.WHERE. In fact i even mentioned that NiceGuys (like fat women) have work to do if they expect relationships. Nor was this a screed about hypergamy or women’s choices in men due to attraction (although those choices do lead to women leveling complaints of all men are assholes). It’s about how honest guys who didn’t know better got destroyed and be portrayed as more evil than true misogynists by ENTITLED cunts in public and it’s seen as just another day at the office. But when women complain, they get articles in Salon, Slate and the Atlantic to receive societies assuaging of their butthurt feelings for ACTUALLY saying they’re entitled to good strong hardworking ‘where have all the good men gone’ men simply because they have a vagina.

    Now that’s privilege you just can’t buy…

    What i said was pretty cut and dry. These guys are voicing that what they are doing; what is the perceived normal ideals espoused by women to attain a relationship (not sex), is in fact NOT working and that the time, effort and energy they put in is not yielding dividends, ie. a relationship. They’re the one’s revealing the scam for what it is. Never believe in what a woman says, only what she does. And for that, they’re being lynched by the feminine imperative to keep the secret from getting out.

    In fact, i don’t even think you read this post whatsoever and you’re wasting my time here.

    Nice try to deflect and redirect.. but this isn’t D&D, you get no saving throws. Everything else you wrote was written in trollish. So go back to the shadows ancient demon of the underworld, i have men to awaken.

    “Of course, I realize what I’m doing right now is tantamount to talking to a turd.”

    I believe the correct spelling is ‘taking‘….


  50. KT:

    “Any man who gripes about “female entitlement” is just mad because he feels entitled to a female. ”

    Meh.

    “when it comes to a woman doing the exact same thing with an “alpha male” these self-proclaimed “nice guys” get all butthurt.”

    Women cannot do the same as an alpha male. If you’re talking about fucking around, everything is different about it. As a woman you just have to be available and open your legs. The other 99% of the work is done for you.

    For the guys doing that other 99% of the work, we have been told to be nice guys, not alpha men. Actually, alpha men are shamed all the time, while we’re told that if we’re more nice we’ll be able to fuck and to have relationships. And it’s a bad advice because it produces the opposite.

    “You don’t see ANY correlation between that and the whole concept of, “Guys like to screw sluts but marry nice chicks?” ”

    Actually there’s no correlation. Women dont fuck or marry the nice guys. Women are not saving the nice guys for last. Women are actually turned off and repelled by them – while at the same time telling men they should be nice. You wont find any equivalent in the reverse frame. Men dont tell women to be nicer and then repel them for being so.

    “Yet, you don’t see droves of women encouraging each other to be bitchy sluts…”

    Yep. Feminism, slut walks, women need men like fish need bycicles, strong independent women that enjoy their youth and sexuality, while at the same time shaming sexual men and portraiting male sexuality as criminal. You dont see this happening?

    “the volume of men telling each other to be assholes and to distrust women and to use and abuse women.”

    Distrust, sure. But men telling other men to abuse women? what do you mean?

    “Of course, I realize what I’m doing right now is tantamount to talking to a turd.”

    Its more like your emotions are doing the talking. Because you’re not making sense.

    “you’ll realize the true source of all your misery….and here’s a hint: It’s not anyone else but you.”

    I agree. The same applies to you.


  51. What the hell, man?
    Shut up until you actually take the time to read M3′s posts. He doesn’t claim any of the crap you say he does.
    Frickin’ monosyllabic twit…


  52. Roll for damage.


  53. Ah, crap…what edition are we using?
    Please tell me I don’t need a Thac0 chart.


  54. Behavior that a woman approves of is not necessarily the same behavior that attracts her sexually.


  55. I can’t say I disagree with you on any of this.


  56. Do we use Dex modifier or Str modifier for blog troll damage? Maybe Int modifier? In that case she’s screwed. And she gets -2 to armor class because she’s probably fat and easy to hit.


  57. i covered this before.

    you HAVE to be nice. just hold women accountable for the shit tests. see guys call other guys out all the time. nice guys fuck up by NOT calling out women. the supplicate. and we all know what happens then.

    it’s THAT simple.


  58. You know there was another article I read from an out-of-shape slut who was upset at where all the good men had gone now that she wanted to have kids, my comment went something like this:

    Any woman who gripes about “male entitlement” is just mad because she feels entitled to a husband after playing the field. It’s so funny how this article goes on and on about how women just want a prince charming to take care of them while they pump out kids and know that in a nanosecond they could leave this nice man and they’re hard wired that way and it’s our evolution and blablablablaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, but then when it comes down to a man protecting himself by doing the exact same thing to a “slut” these self-proclaimed “independent women” get all butthurt.

    You don’t see ANY correlation between that and the whole concept of, “Women like to screw the richest, most asshole-ish man while laughing at nice guys?” You don’t see droves of men encouraging each other to be leave their girlfriends…I mean some people do, but not in the volume of women telling each other to be free of all responsibility and to distrust nice men because all they want is sex and to use and abuse nice guys for all the nice things they’ll do for you.

    Of course, I realize what I’m doing right now is tantamount to talking to a hamster. No matter what I say, your opinion doesn’t change, but it’s interesting to learn the repetitive behavior of mental children. One day, you’ll realize the true source of all your misery….and here’s a hint: It’s not anyone else but you.

    yeah, cheap, but I wanted you to feel right at home considering you come from an echo chamber.


  59. “Behavior that a woman approves of is not necessarily the same behavior that attracts her sexually.” I don’t know. I can and do find a “nice guy” sexy…so long as he’s also willing to call me out on my shit and not put up with disrespectful behavior. Like Danny said above, “nice guys fuck up by not calling out women.” I don’t think a nice guy has to become an asshole to be sexy to women or change completely who he is. It’s not niceness that’s the turn-off for me…it’s supplicating behavior or a lack of self-respect that can turn off attraction. That’s just my perspective.


  60. I take it these people you’re having conversations with don’t have “bosses”? Because dominance = leadership, and no good leader (aka boss) I know of would “rape” those under his authority, it’s just not good for business, or a good relationship.

    Anyone who plays the “dominance = rape” card is intellectually bankrupt and can’t form a credible counter-argument.


  61. “You’ve stepped on a hidden trigger, setting off an ancient trap. The ceiling over you has just collapsed, you failed your saving throw to escape the falling debris, and you now resemble road pizza.”


  62. This.


  63. Men work hard to please women. If you’re working for something, then you don’t feel entitled to it. If you are entitled to something, then you expect to get it. That’s the definition of an entitlement.


  64. Lol, completely untrue for me.
    There are no behaviors that I find attractive in my lover than I’d not wish to have (or DO have) myself.


  65. approving someone else’s behavior doesnt mean you possess the same behavior

    you can disapprove something rationally or morally but still get turned on by it. ask christians.


  66. This is very true, perhaps even in 95% of cases. However, even if I rack my brain, I truly, honestly, sincerely cannot think of a quality that I find attractive in a lover that I either don’t myself possess or wish I could possess.

    If we’re not talking about physical traits, then I value/have/find attractive the following;

    Honesty
    Loyalty
    Compassion
    Good self esteem
    Confidence
    A healthy mindset/No addictions
    A desire to help others
    Willingness to rationally discuss problems
    Kindess towards all people
    A funny demeanor/Good sense of humor
    Responsibility for one’s actions/words
    A love of sex and/or pleasure for both partners
    Desire for freedom
    Acknowledgement of one’s “inner child”

    I’m sure there are other qualities that I’ve forgotten or cant think of…but these are what I find attractive in my lover. As he and others tell it, I posses these qualities too, so I conclud that I tend toward personalities that resemble my own when choosing relationships to nuture and keep.

    Does that make sense now?


  67. how about vigor, resilience, dominance, power, swagger, resources, know-how, and a hard cock, to name a few

    in other words, most nice guys ™ match your softy qualities, which are nature/femenine oriented

    but the point was about approval of behavior vs attraction

    approval happens in the rational mind, while attraction is deeper and animal. the two can conflict.


  68. Vigor can certainly be added to my list. Resilience is something that I wish I had more of, but my lover seems to fully own. A hard cock is a physical attribute, so I didn’t include it.

    Resources? Not necessary for attraction. I have FAR more “disposable” income than my lover. Doesn’t mean I don’t love him any less just because I pay for our nights out.

    Swagger, power, dominance? No thank you…unless we’re talking about bedroom roleplaying. I want an equal partner, not some egotistical puffed up blowhard. That’s why I find confidence and good self esteem attractive, rather than what you’ve said.

    Know how? Knowing *what*? How to heat a can of soup? Change a tire? Calculate derivatives? Give a dog a bath? What are you talking about here?

    I agree that “attraction” is more primal and that “approval” is more rational…not arguing that. I was simply stating that for ME they are basically the same. I’m hardly trying to speak for anyone else!


  69. Anna,

    I respect your opinion on this. Personally, I do find myself attracted to qualities in a guy that I do not and probably could not ever possess. It seems that you prefer (and have) a more egalitarian relationship, while my preference is for a complementarian relationship…so our different opinion here makes sense given our wildly different perspectives. Since I’m looking for a traditional, male-led relationship, I am more attracted to men who possess qualities that would help them be good leaders, and in turn I try to cultivate qualities in myself that would help me fulfill a nurturing, supportive and submissive role. Perhaps I am limiting myself by believing that I could never, say, be as emotionally strong as a man. Or maybe I’m just being realistic in acknowledging that I’m a highly emotional creature and would be better suited to a partner (and leader) who is more rational. In any case, thanks for sharing your perspective. You seem like a really strong and intelligent person and I definitely respect your point of view. I hope I’m not coming off argumentative. I just read what Yohami wrote and understood what he meant by it.


  70. Lol, completely untrue for me.

    In recognition of the potential for your response the key word “necessarily” was included in the comment.


  71. Gwen-

    No, you’re fine. It takes a lot to get under my collar, and I love a good discussion anyway. Always a new view to learn from or marvel at… :)

    Yes, I do have a egalitarian relationship. I’ve never been one to ask others to do/buy things for me. Car payments are mine, college loans are mine, groceries, furniture, gas, electric, credit cards, pet food, home payments…mine, mine, mine. Didn’t hurt that I moved out 2 months before I turned 18, either.

    I just like depending on me. In my humble opinion, it makes me stronger, which is important for times when friends/family/etc need you there for them financially as well as emotionally. I’ve been told many a time that I’m a rock of stability for friends who need it. I think that it is possible to be nurturing and strong at the same time…like a proud oak tree that has strength in the trunk and roots, but shelter in it’s boughs.

    As for your own way of living, I see nothing wrong with it. Every other woman in my family subscribes to the notion of “male lead/work, female follow/helpmate”. I’m a bit of a black sheep in that regard…lol. But hey, if you’re happy like that, and your man is too, I’m hardly one to judge. Live and let live, you know? We all have different needs/wants since we’re all different people.

    I guess I just get frustrated because a lot of guys (and gals) in the ‘sphere act as though being a strong female is counter MRA. I’ve been told numerous times that if I don’t “start acting submissive/feminine/weak/needy/etc” then my man will get tired of having me and leave for a “real woman”. Pshaw, I say. We’ve been lovers for nigh 7 years, and he knows that I love him…that I care for him…am addicted to pleasuring him…and he for me.

    I can never be a submissive person. I refuse to lie to myself or those I care about, or to become bitter about hiding who I am. What I WILL do is continue to strengthen every good point that I have while confronting misandric thought/actions when I see it, and continue to be a rock to my friends when they need it.

    Hope that didn’t come off too soapbox-y. ;)


  72. Estwald-

    Touche.


  73. Although I really get all of this… and previously said “I can’t say I disagree with you on any of this”, I want to add something.

    When was in high school (12 yrs ago) there was a kid who had a crush on me. I’d say he was a “nice guy”, and we hung out in P.E. together and had mutual friends. I was pretty oblivious to the fact he had a thing for me. Apparently, he did though. Again, I thought he was a nice guy, but I wasn’t attracted to him (hint: attraction is important to girls, too). So… we got through high school and I saw him every now and then with our mutual friends. We were never bff.

    One day, I go out to my car (a really shitty ’79 Mustang) and there was dried, brown splatter down the passenger side of it. I was perplexed, but it barely marred the beauty of my flesh-colored vehicle. I just got in and drove to work. Week later, I found out this guy had puked on my car. Apparently, one of his charming talents included the ability to puke on command. And so, feeling resentful of my lack of attention, he thought vomiting on my car was a good way to get back at me… for… not appreciating him.

    Aside from puking on my car, I’d still say he was probably a pretty decent guy. I get that he was frustrated. I mean, we’re all frustrated when people don’t share our feelings. But… I think these are the “nice guy” displays of frustrations females don’t appreciate, and don’t think are very “nice” at all. Yeah, yeah… I get it. Rejection is hard on our self-esteem, and we act out. But… you don’t get to act out and still insist you’re a nice guy. And when “nice guys” puke on your car, it makes you feel they think they’re entitled to your attention, and that you deserve to be punished for withholding it.

    So… what did *I* do wrong here? Did I deserve to have my car puked on? Did I owe him attention? Would you assume my attention was fixated on a douche bag instead? Is it my problem he lacks the proper social conditioning needed to woo a female? Am I not actually entitled to feel disgusted by his display of immaturity?

    I really would like guys and girls to come to some consensus (fat chance) and I’m not the chick who’s going to bash the “nice guys”. But. You know. I don’t want to drink the “muddy diseased african water with ebola in a rusty can”, either. And if I’m not into this guy (who’s been compared to the fat chick), why would I be expected to hook up with him because of his [alleged] “great personality”?


  74. I agree.


  75. You are full of shit and your story is made up.


  76. [...] of OkCupid (or victims of society’s attempts to make despised feminine women out of men): The Crime of Being Nice (contains 3 more relevant [...]


  77. Not that I mean to jump in the middle here, but women Friend Zone men because women mistakenly think men can actually be “friends” with them. They want to keep the guy in their life and think being friends is the way to do that.

    They don’t realize men are primarily interested in sex.

    No man wants to hang out with a woman so they can be good buddies for the rest of their lives. He’s hoping to get laid at some point, or maybe have a more romantic relationship, but NOT FRIENDSHIP.

    The only exception to this is if he is married or living with someone—and his sexual needs are being met—and the female “friend” is the partner of a guy friend of his. Then the couples are friends with each other.

    But a single man and a single woman? They will be friends right up until he finds a gf and the gf doesn’t want the “friend” around.


  78. Cara-

    I agree with your last paragraph, but that’s it. The rest of it is, in my personal experience, utter hooey and/or crap.

    Sorry, but you’ve basically just said that you believe men are so primitive that they cannot have a relationship with 52% of the planet unless it includes sex. I’ll agree that sex is incredibly important and a huge motivation for most of us (self included)…but I think it’s rather harsh to say that a man’s entire life revolves around it to the extent you claim.

    It is simply untrue.


  79. You’re seriously claiming I just made this story up on the fly? Really? I’m asking for genuine input. This really happened. And you’re sort of proving why dialog is impossible. I’m not a “nice guy” hater, but we’ve all had shitty experiences with so-called “nice guys”. And all you can come up with is that I’ve made this elaborate story up to… what? Why would I make this up?


  80. Sounds like “your guy” didn’t get his attention returned, and decided to do something that would “force” you to respond, as “any” attention is better than no attention. His mistake is in assuming you’d “figure it out”, and when you “didn’t” – barf.

    Now, if your story left out that he eagerly did things for you, gave you gifts, asked you to go places with him, etc. then I’d call you out for leading him on and not making things clear to him and benefiting from his behavior even though you knew it would never become a relationship.


  81. I would definitely agree with Northern Observer, especially if this relationship was as one sided as it kinda sounds.

    I’ve known many, MANY females who are “friends” with males. Conversely, I’ve known 3 females (self included) who actually *were/are* friends with males.

    The difference?

    Women who are “friends” with heterosexual men basically use them. They are completely ignorant (willful or otherwise) of any sexual attractions between them, and if found out they’ll often sever ties with the man because “it’s weird that he thinks of me that way”.

    These “friends” will gladly and happily accept gifts, drinks, movie tickets, dinners, etc but not give any in return…or do it so infrequently that it’s not worth mentioning. They will ask for (and always receive) help from their male “friends”, but never give help when asked. At times they can be convinced to partake in male oriented entertainment, but will often botch the game/drop the equipment/forget the supplies, not because these women are clumsy but because they don’t want to be doing these activities. Yet if the male “friends” beg off being in her female oriented entertainment, she will become emotional, angry and unnecessarily bitter.

    Opposite sex friends, on the other hand, can recognize and openly talk about any attraction between them, even if both of them agree that it won’t “go anywhere”. They don’t thought police each other, and don’t think male female attraction is “weird”. If the guy pays for dinner one week, the girl will pay for the movie and snacks next week.

    They are casual and comfortable in each others presence, and often enjoy the same hobbies and activities. Even when there are huge discrepancies between what they like, negotiations will be made so both parties are happy. If they truly are friends, they will give each other the same amount of help, money or gifts…or mercilessly tease each other about being poor.

    Now, I’m willing to give Cara the benefit of the doubt, and say that maybe she *did* have the latter type of relationship. Maybe this guy really was utterly immature, entitled and not nice…but I do not think so. Why would you be *any* kind of friend with a person like that?

    Cara, it sounds to me like you weren’t friends with this man, but instead were “friends”. Perhaps if you gave more details I’d change my mind, but as it reads I’ll have to side with Northern Observer. Sorry.


  82. If the dude is attracted to the woman beyond platonic, it’s never a good situation. It wasn’t for me.

    http://whoism3.wordpress.com/2012/07/04/why-platonic-is-not-possible-for-me/

    There are certain situations where it can happen that men and women can be more than just ‘aquantances’ or ‘work chums’… but its exceedingly rare that a man will have so much in common with a woman he’s attracted too and NOT want to pursue something more. In that case, it’s akin to animal cruelty.

    Having a relationship with 52% of the planet does not mean constantly finding time to spend around someone, go shopping with them, listen to their dating horror stories, etc… i have plenty of female ‘coworkers’ i commiserate with on a daily basis. I wouldn’t say i would classify them as ‘friends’. I only have 2-3 solid ‘friendships’ with guys, everyone else is an ‘acquaintance’.

    That means they get the bare minimum from me. And if i’m attracted to them, and they don’t feel the same way about me, i leave them be, but ill never be their ‘friend’.


  83. Puking on your car.. ill give him points for originality thats for sure.

    Poor behavior for sure, i can’t condone it. Perhaps my only thought was he was drinking himself to death by your car in a stalkerish manner and only threw up when he got up to leave. Just thinking out loud here..

    *”I was pretty oblivious to the fact he had a thing for me. Apparently, he did though. “*

    I find it odd that women can be oblivious to the over supplicating nature of men and what it conveys. When guys like girls, they naturally want to go above and beyond the call of duty to please women. It’s a natural reaction, and one that’s been instilled in us for generations of ‘girls like nice boys’.

    People who care about people go out of their way to show it, people who don’t.. don’t. That’s what i’ve never understood about female behavior to the aloof, emotionally unavailable asshole. He treats her with utter disdain, and she falls for him deeper. Yet the one who shows he cares the most, is also the one most reviled.

    Oh well, at least we have Game slowly teaching men to weed niceness out… and stupid websites to bash them to speed up the process. But i digress.

    Perhaps if you detailed your interactions with Mr. Puke.. we’d have a better understanding of why he so felt to empty his stomach contents on your Ford.


  84. Agreed. The only men i know who can have women as lifelong bff’s are gay men or beta orbiters. Masculine men don’t suffer the indignity (or blueballs) of cultivating a platonic relationship with a woman they are sexually attracted to in any way, unless that woman is a guaranteed source of available friends for her to wingman him into their panties.

    There always has to be a tradeoff. That’s why it’s called a sexual marketplace. You don’t give away emotional/platonic friendship away (which consists of an investment of time, mental energy, financial resources and physical interaction) without a return of equal value for the man. (intimacy)

    If you want my shoulder to cry on, your hand better be in my pants.
    You want me go for a walk with you to listen to you complain about your boss being such a bitch? Sure, as long as its arm in arm and we stop for a makeout session.
    You want me to go out with you for a night of pool and dancing because you’re bored when i could stay at home and be playing Call of Duty? Sure, so long as you’re dancing with *me* and not other guys looking to have them take you home and leave me with the bill.

    Generally this is for everyone but Carolina.. she already gets this!


  85. Anna – I had a few classes with this guy, and we had mutual friends. We weren’t even “friends”; I’d say we were acquaintances. He never did or paid for anything for me. The most that ever happened was that we hung out and made wise cracks on the bleachers while the other kids played volleyball. He did the typical thing young boys with a crush do to girls: throw my books across the gym or whatever.

    The puke-event didn’t happen until after we were out of high school, and I hadn’t even seen him for a while. I would’ve lived in blissful ignorance if my chick friend, who was dating once of his friends, hadn’t told me… and told me that he could puke on command.

    Maybe all of you will find it hard to believe: I wasn’t the type of girl you’re describing. I was clueless and sheltered my whole life. I was painfully shy in high school. I was never able to utilize my feminine wiles. First, because it felt wrong; second, because… it would’ve been more like that goody-goody kid who uses cuss words out of context. “You’re such a damn head!” In 8th and 9th grade I ate my lunch in the bathroom. AND… to top it all off (and I can say this now that it’s been 12+ years) I was a pretty girl. It wasn’t like I was the fat chick. I was just sheltered and insecure due to lack of social exposure. Or something.

    So, no… he didn’t shower me with gifts; I didn’t let him pay for things and take me places. In fact, I had a hard time accepting those things from guys I *did* end up dating. We made jokes in class, and he occasionally went out of his way to annoy me. And then one day I found out he vomited on my car. Yes, it is pretty original though.

    It does bother me that you’ve made assumptions about me, Anna, when you don’t know me. Everyone jumped to the worst conclusion about ME. Maybe you felt sorry for this guy? I dunno.


  86. That is quite an interesting tale, and statistically, you were one hell of an outlier to be a pretty girl so unaware of her sexuality or power, tho by your descriptions of his actions.. i didn’t see much there in terms of going out of his way to show you how he felt in the ‘typical’ real nice guy way of things.

    “it does bother me that you’ve made assumptions about me,”

    sorry, but as i said, statistically, you’re an aberration. the generalization is a valid one. a majority of women know they can get men to do things for them at the height of their sexual power and will utilize it with the plausible deniability of ‘i only asked as a friend’ full well knowing the guy would do it whereas a man not attracted to her or a woman would not do the same thing for her.

    You came from another world Cara. Here we speak of the majority situations.


  87. Relevant:

    http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/intergender-friendship/


  88. M3-

    Thanks for the two links. I’m at work for the next 9 hours, so I’ll have to read them on my lunch break.


  89. M3 – Fair enough. I was an aberration, and everyone knew it lol. And maybe my many awkward encounters with males had more to do with their experiences with other, more empowered, females. But I did have sooo many weird encounters. And I did try so hard not to lead guys on. I don’t get girls who keep guys around that are pining over them. It’s just awkward.

    I am, however, guilty of using the “let’s just be friends” line… with zero interest in actually being friends. I didn’t *always* use that line. Sometimes it was the method that felt safest. Would it have been more kind to say flat-out I wasn’t attracted to them? Or that I thought they were creepy? You tell me. What is the best way to reject a guy? Brutal honesty? Flat out saying “I don’t want to date you?” Because… they still manage not to “get it”. They’re so convinced of their “niceness” and forget that maybe I’d like to be sexually attracted to them, too. And then they get mad.

    You don’t want to date the fat chick, and I don’t want to date the basement-dwelling pale guy with zits.The fat chick gets no points with you for playing Call of Duty, nor does the basement-dweller get points with me for being nice. They’re both great people inside. We shouldn’t brutalize them for wanting relationships. But our recognition of their good qualities doesn’t mean we get to demand other people give them a chance.

    Anyway. Rejection is tough. Some chicks are bitches about it, no doubt. They take advantage of men, and that’s wrong. But this is a two-way street. Just like a female is partially to blame if she stays in an abusive relationship, a guy is also partially to blame when he hangs around a chick who let’s him pay for things when she insists on calling him “only a friend”. That’s code for “I’m not going to fuck you.” Because you don’t fuck friends no matter how nice they are.

    So… yes, girls would like a nice guy… who is also attractive. Guys would like a chick that plays video games… who’s hot. Both are rare mixes of traits. Such is life.


  90. Cara-

    Well, now that you’ve most fully explained your experiences, I don’t think that anymore. Like M3 said, you are a minority…kind of like myself. If you read my previous post, you’ll see that of all the women I’ve ever known in my life, only myself and two others were conscientious enough to not play with our male friends heads.

    We are a little different, in that I get/got asked out A LOT, and thus knew I was attractive. This only made me more aware of interpersonal relationships, and more cautious of people’s feelings. I *do* believe that you may not have known of your attractiveness though…it’s just how some people are.

    Now that I have heard your full relationship with this guy, I really don’t think you’re one of “those women” after all.

    Welcome to the minority…


  91. “What is the best way to reject a guy? Brutal honesty? Flat out saying “I don’t want to date you?” ”

    I’ve never been in the position (because i was never a top alpha guy) to be rejecting womens advances, but i’ve always had pretty high standards. Maybe it cost me early on, but now being as i am, i would have no problem telling any woman who thought they’re interested in me if they match me on my SMV scale or not. My preference is for thinner, and now i have a body to demand a reciprocal degree of body image in a woman. If a fat woman approached me, no matter how nice, i would honestly play up what good parts she had but state, “But you need to lose some weight girl, i don’t work out 5x a week because i enjoy the smell of my own sweat”.

    “You don’t want to date the fat chick, and I don’t want to date the basement-dwelling pale guy with zits.”
    Again, fair assessment. But as was stated in the post, women actively advertise they want nice without the caveat of what it is they are attracted to. Men do not advertise they are looking or fat women with great personalities. And men are force fed a diet of shit from day one from BOTH men and women about how women want nice, and that only by being nice will they be afforded a chance at a relationship. Yes, women may also be deluded by the old “its whats on the inside that counts” mantra, but guess what.. that only comes from OTHER WOMEN. So on both counts you have WOMEN (feminists whatever) doing the bulk of the lying. And they are culturally acceptable to do so, perpetuating this grand scheme where we end up with Fat Acceptance movements, but no equal love for the Betashmuck.. only vindictiveness.

    “Just like a female is partially to blame if she stays in an abusive relationship, a guy is also partially to blame when he hangs around a chick who let’s him pay for things when she insists on calling him “only a friend”. ”

    On this i have to disagree. Until feminism stops peddling crap to beta’s about being a woman’s friend first, getting to know a woman, treat her like a human being (code for do not accost her sexually to start with).. guys will continue to be duped into believing that only assholes and cads approach women with sex first.. and they will white knight themselves to be with a woman through thick and thin to prove their worth.

    Every man needs to be taught Game’s primary rule. Approach woman with the intent of sexual relations first and foremost. If you are rejected, NEXT and move on as you see fit. That way if you choose to be friends, its your problem at that point. But if men started doing that en masse, women will have to start looking for their emotional support from… *gasp* the guys they’re actually fucking!!!


  92. Okay, I can see that. The message to “get to know her” first and maybe she’ll decide she wants to be with you later is misleading. She knows off-the-bat, like a guy does, whether she’s interested in him as more than a buddy. And, yes, guys generally make it clear they want a hot chick… with maybe a cool personality. But chicks rarely mention they *also* want their guy to be attractive, as well as nice.

    Let it be known: being nice is not enough. Also, typically, girls know right away if they want to date you. Sometimes pursuing a girl works. But it works when you make your intentions known, not by being a friend. My friend’s sister was eventually won over by a guy who just kept asking her out. He didn’t mask his affections for her as only friendship.

    And, just so you know, I’ve been equally disgusted with what’s been happening in the “feminist” movement lately. For a brief moment I wanted to join their ranks; I’ve always been independent and, of course, interested in equal rights. After watching the insanity unfold, I’ve changed my mind. I’d rather call myself a Humanist since I want everyone, including “privileged white males”, to enjoy rights and respectful treatment. I can’t get on-board with the man-hating.


  93. You know you just pissed off every Hollywood media mogul that wants to keep pumping out ‘geeky boy gets the girl by being nice’ movies right?

    No more Superbad’s. ;)


  94. I’m also curious now as to what you think of a friendship that consists of a married man and his female friend.

    You come close in your statement above, but make it sound like it’s really still just the men who are friends with the men, the women who are friends with the women…and thus it’s the couples who are friends, not the individuals themselves. I only ask because, as more and more of my friends get married and I stay single, I find this happening to me.

    Example: I have 8 people in my life who I’d consider true friends. All of them are men. 2 were married when I met them, 4 have gotten married since High School, 1 is gay, and the last has a on/off girlfriend. When I talk to them or hang out, their wives are quite welcome to come to whatever we’re doing…but they typically hate our entertainment/are downers the whole time since none of them are gamers/geeks.


  95. [...] The Crime of Being Nice [...]


  96. A hater, you got a hater! Sweet.


  97. @M3

    At your 9:42am post, you state that there has to be a tradeoff. I agree…otherwise a friendship is entirely one sided.

    But you state that the man expects intimacy in exchange for time, mental energy, financial resources and physical interaction. Why don’t you believe that those 4 things should just be evenly exchanged, and not bring physical intimacy/sex into it at all?

    I’m genuinely curious, because you make it sound as though a woman is useless to you unless she’s giving you sex…but I don’t think that’s what you mean.


  98. men and women make bad friends.

    when a man is friends with a woman he behaves different than he does with his male friends. same for the woman

    what you get is a covert courtship that is never fully exposed and therefore never fully rejected.

    man to man friendship revolves around competition. you pick on each other, challenge each other, do shit together, share a common goal or mission and the friendship-bond helps you get there. you’re buddies on slaying the dragon (sports, games, work, life mission). the more you slay the dragon the more you bond. you keep each other in line “for the path”. for the cause. if you abandon the path the friendship is likely gone, too.

    woman to woman friendship revolves around sameness and non-competition. you form tribes to get protection and to share emotions and to judge (others). you try to keep resources within the tribe, try to take on more and to expel the unwanted. the bond revolves around acceptance regardless of any other factors.

    a true female friend takes whatever you are experiencing and feels it too without judgement – while siding 100% with your side of the story.

    a true male friend makes your ass go back to the line when you deviate

    a man will see a competing man and feel respect / admiration / fear

    a woman will see a competing woman and will feel rejection / hate

    but back to the subject

    men and women make bad friends because we make different friendships. a man sucks as a girlfriend, and a girl sucks as a male friend. and then you have sexual attraction and what not.

    men and women dont form tribes, they form couples. men and women dont team together to slay the dragon, they team to make a family. and if the male slays the dragon is to please her. and the girl wants the man to be the recipient of her emotions, with “being the recipient of emotions” as it’s own pay off. we dont do that shit for other men.

    what you see in intergender friendships goes usually like this:

    - the man is courting the girl by taking whatever values the girl has. he becomes girl-friend like. he takes on her emotional turmoils, he sympathizes with her, he tries his best to be the best girlfriend she has ever had. he does stuff for her. he fixes shit. he drops his own priorities, and stops slaying the dragon if she demands it. he pleases. he’s investing, slowly, with the (usually secrete) hope on turning the relationship into a romantic (hollywood) like once the bond is rock solid. in exchange the girl allows him to be around and to be her emotional dumpster. but she doesnt take his emotions, and she doesnt act as the perfect girl-friend for him, in part, because the male friend is trying his best to show his best side… because he’s, after all, courting.

    or

    - the girl is courting the man by going on with him on whatever slaying-the-dragon activities he likes. sports or playing instruments or activism or whatever the shit. she plays a supporting role, while she secretely has a crush on him and dreams on to seduce him eventually. she might hold on to her emotions and try not to scare the guy etc.

    or, you can have less involved friendships, where the guy sometimes listens to your ramble, and the girl sometimes goes with you to slay the dragon

    and then I guess there are some deviations from this, and some girls are wired more like men, and some men are wired more like women, and form friendships like the opposite gender – while impeding them from forming “true friendships” with their own

    and I guess a very small percentage of the population can do both. but then, some people get turned on by crash accidents. accept the deviations from the norm for what they are.


  99. “the man expects intimacy in exchange for time, mental energy, financial resources and physical interaction. Why don’t you believe that those 4 things should just be evenly exchanged, and not bring physical intimacy/sex into it at all?”

    when a man becomes friend with another man, the friendship is not about time, mental energy, financial resources and physical interaction. those are the things you do when you court a woman. you give those, because those are the things a woman wants from a man. which are also different to what the women request from other women.

    “Why don’t you believe that those 4 things should just be evenly exchanged”

    add sexual attraction to the mix and the exchange becomes a means to an end


  100. Dammit Yohami.. you just killed the next post I was writing! Everything I was going to say, you said.. and then you added more!

    Well said though :P

    Maybe I can still salvage it.. and just link to your comment where applicable.


  101. a few more notes

    a male friend will either fix your problem or tell you what you have to change / where you made a mistake

    a female friend will side with you and take a share of your pain and offer comfort, possibly without fixing the problem, and framing your mistakes as something that happened to you instead of something you did. the key word is acceptance.

    the female accepts you in. while the male kicks your ass so you can go back outside and fight.

    when men and women try to be “friends”, the woman is expecting unconditional acceptance and non competition, while the man is expecting brutal / honest insight and competition

    give brutal / honest insight to a woman while she’s sharing her problems and she’ll cry

    give full acceptance (i.e, no solutions) to a man while he’s sharing his problems and he will drawn

    but these same things make for good love/sex relationships. not “friendship”. you form a complimentary bond where the man offers action dominance insight and “fix things”, in other words, power, and the woman offers comfort, support, acceptance etc. and together they do sex and babies.


  102. *and the woman offers comfort, support, acceptance etc. in other words, nurturing.


  103. The feminists say it is painfully obvious that nobody is entitled to sex or a relationship. Very good then. In line with that rule, I would like to see a few changes.

    I don’t want to hear frumpy, fat women complaining about how no men are interested in them romantically, about how “big is beautiful” and about how their only male acquaintances are gay, about how the “beauty myth” oppresses them despite Dove soap pouring money into “real beauty” propaganda. Nobody is entitled to sex or relationships.

    I don’t want to hear 40+ women complaining about they feel invisible and how men just “see through them” now. Nobody is entitled to sex or relationships.

    I don’t want to hear OkCupid pissing and moaning about how men won’t consider older woman and then begging men to please humor the mature ladies so they won’t feel duped by dating sites. Nobody is entitled to sex or relationships.

    I don’t want to hear successful professional Ph.D. women complaining about how their success and achievement intimidates men, and how nobody asked them for a date once they solved the doctoral challenge equation. Go bask in your intellectual glory. Nobody is entitled to sex or relationships.

    I don’t want to hear male-to-female transexuals complaining that “cisgendered” (that is, real) men won’t humor their precious new gender identities by having sex and entering into relationships with them. Nobody is entitled to sex or relationships.

    I’m sure there are other things to address, but that should be enough to get started.


  104. I guess my confusion comes from the fact that I’m really uncomfortable being “feminine”…or at least the stereotypical “feminine”.

    I’m *into* slaying the dragon. I’m *into* playing D&D, painting miniatures, driving fast, going out for a pub crawl, hitting each other with boffer weapons, playing videogames, learning military strategies, running around in the woods getting bruises from paintball.

    I remember being woken up by a phone call at 4am by a friend whose car had broken down on his way home. He was an hour away, but I pulled on my jeans and got him home. I recall paying for all 5 of my friends plus myself at a restaurant because I lost the “credit card roulette” they wanted to play. I was the only female at our 7 person sleepovers…I frickin’ kicked their asses at Primal Rage and Mortal Kombat…I gave as well as I got when it came to backhanded compliments and insults.

    When one friend got severely depressed, I bought him a $70 watch to cheer him up. I’ve played jokes where I sent them roses at work with a guy’s name attached…though I think we’re even because they bought me a lap dance at a strip club we went to. We’ve bought each other gifts, done idiotic pranks, seen each other half dressed, wrestled, and made fun of religious nuts on TV. We went fishing, hiked up mountains, climbed trees, built forts, shot cans full of BBs, dried each others tears when a relative died, woke each other up at 1am just to tell stupid jokes, hit each other so hard at times that our parents thought we were auditioning for “Fight Club”.

    These guys ARE my friends, just as I am theirs. They could’ve stopped hanging out with me at any time, returned my gifts, excluded me from vacations and shunned me at games. They knew I wasn’t interested in sex, and still invited me to their homes/the mall/holiday parties…just as I did for them.

    Now that we all live in different states and they’re all “taken”, I know those days are past us. Oh, we still email each other…play together on Xbox Live…poke one another on Facebook…but it’ll never be how it was when we were preteens and young adults. People grow up, sad but true. Two of my friends are much closer, and we still do stuff together, but it’s difficult when their wives are so suspicious of me.

    Point is, I guess I’m one of the 1% of women who is actually able to have men as friends. I’ll be the first to admit though…we’re a hell of an endangered species.


  105. But, YOHAMI…

    I act like the guy in the situations you detail above. I don’t *want* to be patted on the back when I have a problem…I want to brainstorm with you and FIX it. I’ll give comfort when it’s needed (lost job, someone died, etc) but if you come crying to me about something stupid I’ll verbally punch you and tell you to stop being such a pansy.

    There’s a reason I don’t mesh well with other women, and why my friends call me “bro” and “a boy with a vagina”. I’m not trying to be so different…believe me, it has caused so many frickin’ problems in the past…but I can’t change how I am. :(


  106. I’m sorry, attraction isn’t a choice. And if i’m attracted to you, then i don’t want to play 3rd wheel, giving you an even exchange of those things without asking for intimacy/sex, especially when im single.

    I choose not to risk putting myself in that situation anymore. If i find you visually appealing, then spending enough time around you to discover what else we may have in common could just exasperate the issue. I’m not about to martyr my mental health and my mojo asking myself why you don’t find me sexually desirable and want to remain ‘just friends’.

    Thats why i have the 1 strike rule. You only need to tell me your not sexually attracted to me once. Then i bounce. It’s best for all involved.

    Im not close friends with any of my friends wives. (hint: they’re all attractive) that doesn’t make them ‘useless’. i treat them with the reverence of being my best friends wife, but i don’t stick around to swap gossip and talk about the weather.


  107. Agree to all of it.

    There’s a difference between Expectation and Entitled.

    Those niceguys, while being ‘unattractive’ were doing socially contrived requirements within the structure of the feminine imperative that says you need to do A and B to get puh-C. They had an expectation based towards a socially accepted outcome.

    Those girls on the other hand (and every descriptive you gave) show that it is wymmin who feel Entitled to relationships and men, not based on anything they do in action or deed towards the man, but simply as a form of justification for their own awesomeness. It is the height of hubris to believe you are owed something like a mans commitment because you hold a PhD or are a high powered lawyer. These provide no net benefit of any kind to a man’s primary interests in forming a relationship, unlike a mans ability to be a provider, protector and resourcefulness.

    Those nice guys carried an expectation of relationship by doing the old tradcon path of chivalry and being nice. Those women carried an entitled attitude for believing men should put a ring on it just because they are awesome vagina’s.


  108. You sound like a really awesome chick and i truly feel for your position. I can only say this. Given what you described above, if i knew you in person, and you are slender and attractive, given all the above, i’d probably be falling for ya.

    Because at the end of the day, i want to spend my time with someone who will not complicate my life but rather blend into it seamlessly.

    And if you didn’t feel sexually interested in me, what then? Do i fall on my sword to keep giving you our great friendship while denying my true self?

    *”Point is, I guess I’m one of the 1% of women who is actually able to have men as friends.”*

    All women are capable of having men as friends. It’s the men who have to choose by situation whether they can accept it or not.
    -married attached men can be your friend easily since they got sex locked (but their wives will hate you)
    -gay men (because they’re gay)
    -shy beta/omega/orbiters (because they’re too starved for female interaction they’ll bear that cross to be around you)
    -alpha’s who have a steady rotation spinning plates (they’re not pining for you, but will always test you for weaknesses like raptors test electric fences)
    -guys with no sex drive

    but guys like me, who at this moment are too tired to go out spinning plates, not married, not with someone, and currently looking for a gem in the rough have better things to do then spend all of our time with a really great gal that loves all the same things i do and has a really good figure AND has no desire to be with me sexually to remind us that something is lacking. That really can fuck up your mind real bad.


  109. got it. that makes your equalist relationship make more sense too. you’re partners in a team. a huge lot of men aspire to that kind of relationship, and would be happier if more tomboys existed.


  110. You said you have a lover right?

    Tell me.. what side of “a boy with a vagina” does he see? Does he see the same thing all your bro’s see? Or do you show him someone else? A more feminine you? Or do you treat him the same way you treat your bro’s?


  111. I don’t act different around him (except when we’re roleplaying in the bedroom). We do most of the same things my friends and I do/did, but we have sex 1-4x a week depending on our schedules.

    He’s not really anymore attractive than my friends…in fact, he’s about 45lbs overweight, many years older than me, and graying at the temples. But his scent (pheromones?)is so incredible, I swear to the Gods…it’s like he’s a walking aphrodisiac. I actually have one rule for when we are together: no cologne, no lotion, no musk, no scented soap.

    I guess I’m just a sucker for a man who truly smells good (in more ways than one!).


  112. I appreciate your understanding, YOHAMI.
    Thank you.


  113. I think we’ll have to chalk this up to something we disagree on, M3.

    But I greatly appreciate your views, and this exchange has given me much to research and think about. I know some of our differences are sex based, but our life experiences are very much a part of us too…and our general personalities.

    Still love your blog though, so you can’t get rid of me that easy!

    Bwa ha ha ;)


  114. who said i wanted to get rid of you :P

    i find your presence here refreshing and your inquisitive curiosity delightful. disagreements will happen, but so long as we all remember that im always right (lol). You’re not wrong, i’m not wrong, it’s how we handle things, tho in this case i would have to say (and you have to admit) you are the statistical outlier here, making you the anomaly, hence your experience will be vastly under represented in the discussions at hand. Generalities are a bitch i know. I keep having to remind my feministy bisexual coworker that altho she is female, what she expects and assumes about womens behavior is not what 90% of actual women actually do and that her reality should in no way be used to provide ‘generalities’ upon the common straight female in today’s SMP.

    Still, i find your curiosity and inquisitiveness refreshing and your participation most welcome. Watching you and Yohami, i am reminded of what HUS used to be like, where men could talk to women with unvarnished truth and not have to worry about the dainty feelings of the helpless women performing the duck and cover maneuver. You might not like what you hear, you may not agree with it, but so long as you don’t come running to me saying ‘Save me from the bad man and ban him!’ it’s all good in the hood :)


  115. @Yohami – your insights, as usual, are spot-on as far as I’m concerned. I’ve never been one to keep male friends for the very reasons you give. They just operate on a whole different level than me. When I talk to my girlfriends about issues or problems they understand that I am venting, that I just need them to listen and that I need them to validate my feelings. I, in turn, instinctively realize that this is what they need from me. When I would complain or vent to my husband (now my ex), he would attempt to offer me solutions or challenge me on the validity of my emotions, in effect, leading and guiding me in a certain direction to fix the problem. My many girlfriends are invaluable to me. A guy couldn’t fill their role and I really only need one man in my life to lead me and offer guidance.

    I never understood girls who would say, “Oh I only have guy friends. I can’t be friends with other girls.” Now I think that maybe this has something to do with those types of girls having a more masculine way of thinking. Anna appears to be one such girl, which would explain why she asked the question regarding reciprocity. She seems quite capable of having reciprocal and platonic friendships with men. I know I’m really only capable of having complementarian type relationships with men for I am very feminine and also probably because I am traditional. Also, I still get nervous around men sometimes, which harks back to my upbringing where I was taught that males were superior to me in every way. I just know it’s best for me to avoid platonic relationships with men in my real life. On the other hand, over the internet, it’s very easy to befriend men and correspond with them.

    I always thought it was wrong, or odd, for me to not really keep guys I wasn’t attracted to around for friendships, especially because most women I know do that. But after reading in the sphere about how cruel that can be, I’m glad I’ve never made a practice of doing that. Honestly, I don’t believe most women who do have male friends are intending to take advantage or purposely being mean or cruel or manipulating. I think that most girls must honestly believe that the guy is also getting something out of the friendship. It’s just hard for me to believe that so many girls could be that malicious. God, I hope I’m not wrong about that.


  116. One word: Awesome. :D


  117. Because you want attention


  118. “They’re so convinced of their “niceness” and forget that maybe I’d like to be sexually attracted to them, too. And then they get mad. ”

    If that happens, remember that the anger is more likely about how they’ve done what everyone’s telling them to do to get a date (be nice), and (yet again!) it hasn’t worked to get them a date. If you’re feeling generous and have some time, ask the guy why he’s getting mad, and if he expresses frustration at how his search hasn’t worked, then point him to a red pill web site which’ll document how they’ve been lied too all this time, and what actually does work.


  119. “What is the best way to reject a guy? ”

    Whatever you do, *don’t* use the phrase “You’re a nice guy, but….”


  120. Gwen-

    Even though we’d never hang out in real life, you seem like a nice person to talk to online. I am indeed “one such girl”, lol. I have had female friends in the past, but they never lasted. I think 2 years is my record…and it’s not that I pushed them away, it always just ended up with them gradually breaking off contact with me.

    We never mesh. In my mind, a true friend is someone you’d do nearly anything for. If they were sick, you’d bring them food at home + a new videogame for them to play/new book to read + wear a real gasmask when you deliver the goods, just to make them laugh.

    If they’re upset at their job, you offer constructive criticism of both them and their boss, work on a dialogue that may fix the problem, and remind them that they should think of the boss as a stand in at a Monty Python skit.

    Ummm…these (and other examples I could say) and not often appreciated by other girls, sad to say. I’ve also found that they don’t like to stroll through the mall as though you’re from the Ministry of Silly Walks…but *do* want to stop at every. Single. Clothing. Store. Kill me now, unless we’re going to the Sharper Image store immediately afterwards.

    Like I said to YOHAMI, I’m not trying to be different or like “guy stuff” just for the attention. I tried to be a nice girl like you, and it never ever worked out…I figured I was onto something when 3 of my girl friends said “I can’t be friends with you anymore, you’re too much like my brother!” You say you’re a little afraid of menfolk in real life. I’m a little afraid of womenfolk in real life. They are like a judge/jury/executioner all rolled into one, ready to tell me just how poor of a girl I am, or how I’m probably a slut for “being” with so many men.

    I have been known to play Leisure Suit Larry and Playboy Mansion, but I don’t think that’s what they mean. :P

    I do have a question for you though. You say that you were taught that men are superior to you in every way. Who the heck taught you that? Even most Fundie Christians/Jews seem to at least teach that women are superior at things like childcare, housework, having babies, being pretty, etc…


  121. It is the height of hubris to believe you are owed something like a mans commitment because you hold a PhD or are a high powered lawyer.

    A female professor at Columbia University (who was suing the University for discrimination of course) wrote some op-ed and specifically made this complaint about her graduate school days:

    Attitudes matter. When I was the only graduate student in my class at MIT who solved the A+ question in the mathematics exam, almost by magic I lost all my male friends and no one again asked me for a date.

    http://www.columbiaspectator.com/2005/02/07/glass-ceiling

    Of course, nobody is entitled to platonic friendship or romantic solicitations. Unless they are “glass ceiling” breakers who need to be reassured?

    Cry us all a river, professor.


  122. Anna,

    I have to agree with M3, you are a very refreshing personality. You seem to lack the solipsism that most of us girls seem to have. I have to really fight that…to not see the world through an emotional and personal lens. I wish I were more like you in that sense. But I’m wired that way…and I’ve benefited a lot from knowing that I’m wired that way.

    As far as being taught that men are superior to me, I guess I worded that wrong. Of course I was taught that women are superior at being pretty and at performing traditonal female tasks. But what I was taught is that men are naturally more intelligent, more rational, stronger, more suitable for leadership roles. Even though I realize now that this is not always the case, it’s hard to let go of some notions that were ingrained in my head from an early age. Now I would never put someone in a proverbial box and assume she is incapable or less intelligent or less competent because she is female. Honestly, I’m very smart and also capable of taking care of myself. I think the biggest reason I want a male-led relationship is because sexually I’m more attracted to dominance in a man. I guess I’d rather give up some autonomy in order to feel a greater attraction to my partner. Does that make sense?

    ~gwen


  123. Sorry ybm… I’m happily taken and get all the attention I need. I’m sorry you don’t like that this story is true, but it happened 12 years ago and I was using it to illustrate a point, and ask for input. Feel free to ignore me.


  124. Your forum is really hard to comment in. O_o

    “If that happens, remember that the anger is more likely about how they’ve done what everyone’s telling them to do to get a date (be nice), and (yet again!) it hasn’t worked to get them a date. If you’re feeling generous and have some time, ask the guy why he’s getting mad, and if he expresses frustration at how his search hasn’t worked, then point him to a red pill web site which’ll document how they’ve been lied too all this time, and what actually does work.”

    My brother and I were recently having a conversation about this very thing. Movies like Superbad and all the chick flicks out there do such a disservice to both sexes. Both genres set up guys and girls for failure and disappointment. The chick flicks are telling girls to hold out for Mr Perfect-Prince Charming, and the romcoms aimed at dudes tell them that the hottest fucking chick ever will accept them in all their nerdly glory if they’re nice enough. Neither genre stresses that you have to give a lot to get a lot. A girl can’t expect prince charming if she doesn’t improve her own character (not be a spoiled brat). Also, prince charming is a fairy tale! And the hot model chick? She’s also a fairy tale… especially if you think she’s going to be into gaming. That would be a rare find (apparently Anna is one of those diamonds in the rough). There needs to be movies that bring people back down to earth so they can accept each other as the imperfect humans they are. Besides, if you’re not perfect, it’s unfair to expect your mate to be.

    ANYWAY… luckily for me, I’m out off the market. I found my gaming nerd guy and we spend our nights playing Guild Wars 2 and our days at the Web Design office shooting nerf guns at each other. I’d like to find a way to interest those of the female persuasion that gaming is fun as hell so, you know, there are more cool, down-to-earth chicks available. Our culture sucks.


  125. “Your forum is really hard to comment in. O_o”

    In the way reply’s are structured, or the harsh tone of some of my readers ;P

    I agree. I should ask everyone if they want me to drop nested comments for the straight inline approach. Next post will be a poll asking that question.

    I agree with you on Hollywood being full of shit peddling shit and swimming in shit. I’m glad you found someone and have escaped the cesspool. I wish there were more feminine gaming nerd girls to choose from. I’m sitting at my desk with a nerf 6 shooter and nary a sinlgle girl in sight to tag with my bullets of lust.

    Our culture does indeed suck. 40+ years of fucking with nature does that to societies.


  126. “If you want my shoulder to cry on, your hand better be in my pants.”

    OMG!! Hilarious!!! That’s what I love about you, M3, there’s no filter whatsoever.


  127. Oh but i do have a filter luv…

    .. it’s just very very dirtay ;)


  128. Anna,

    A heterosexual single woman who is friends with a married man is treading on thin ice. She better watch her step or she is going to find herself on the receiving end of ugly accusations from the wife, whether they are deserved or not.

    Very very few women on this earth are secure enough to allow a single hetero female to hang around their husband. And honestly, they’d be stupid to allow it.

    Allowing a single female (unless she is a die hard lesbian) around your man is the fastest way to lose him. I’m sorry, that’s just the truth. Ask Jennifer Aniston how that works out.


  129. The way you word things is priceless. I love that line. LOL


  130. I suppose that I’d just have to trust my spouse, if I had one. If I couldn’t trust him to not kiss his coworker after they saw a movie, or to not sleep with a friend he’s had since High School…then *I* would be the one in the wrong.

    Honestly though, I tend to believe in open relationships more than monogamous ones anyway. And yes, I realize this is weird.


  131. You’re a dude :-)


  132. Anna,

    Truth is, men have little in common with women and enjoy the company of their guy friends for most activities.

    Men in general only put up with us for our vaginas. They are not interested in hearing us talk and share our feelings or hear every painful detail about what our friend said to this friend about that friend. Men find most of our conversations tedious.

    Did you read what M3′s response was to what I said? That’s the way heterosexual men feel about women.

    You need to learn more about men. I can tell from your response you don’t really understand them.


  133. To be honest, *I*would hate having to listen to that as well. You obviously haven’t read any of my other comments.

    Your response did make me laugh out loud and startle my dog though…so congrats on that. Lol :)


  134. Ha ha.

    Mind of a guy, body of a woman…that’s me! (And even the second part is not quite feminine in some respects, which I’m eternally grateful for given what I’ve heard other women go through every month!).


  135. Yikes. That’s a pretty cynical view. My boyfriend is interested in what I think and have to say. His eyes don’t just glaze over when I speak and then demand we fuck afterwards to reward him for enduring my tedious jabber.

    We have mutual interests, and that helps tremendously. Maybe women shouldn’t be with men that are their polar opposites. I made a point not to ever date football fanatics because I abhor the entire culture, not the mention the sport itself is dull. If you’re into going to the mall and talking about shoes, maybe you should date a guy equally into fashion. They do exist. Or maybe you should broaden your horizons.

    It is important for me to be able to vent and talk about my problems with my boyfriend, but I do try not to burden him too often because the problem is usually that he gets frustrated when he can’t fix it, not that it bores him so much. He gets irritable because he feels like he’s failing. So, instead I talk to my mom or girlfriends who know that an ear is all I need at the moment. And when he has his own problems, I let him (or don’t bother him when) he wants to play video games all night. That’s *his* stress relief. We’ve communicated what we need, and we honor that. And many times he does listen, and I play games with him.

    I’m sorry *you* have had such negative experiences with guys that you think they’re only tolerating you to get down your pants. My boyfriend is my best friend. We like each other better than we like other people. If you haven’t felt that before, you need to change your strategy.


  136. “Yikes. That’s a pretty cynical view.”

    But you share it:

    “I do try not to burden him too often because the problem is usually that he gets frustrated when he can’t fix it, not that it bores him so much. He gets irritable because he feels like he’s failing. So, instead I talk to my mom or girlfriends”

    In other words your mom and female friends are better at being your friends than your boyfriend. If you relayed on him as your main or sole emotional dumpster, he would be all irritable and frustrated. And I would add, bored.


  137. I totally agree with you on this, Cara. Why would you have a relationship with someone you are diametrically opposed to? Seems like a lot of misunderstanding/fighting…

    …which I suppose is good for rough and tumble makeup sex, but I’d think even THAT would get old after a while.

    “So honey, I’m in the mood. What would you like to argue about tonight?”

    Mucho lolz


  138. M3, with the amount of comments you’re getting, I’d suggest you disable the nesting feature. It’s becoming a mess


  139. Agreed.
    It’s starting to look like a bull ran through a shop filled with Russian nesting dolls…

    And you were going to hang up your blog!


  140. Nesting is dead. Enjoy using the @ feature :P


  141. I don’t use any of my friends as “dumpsters”. And no one person can *ever* be all we need. That’s why having a community is good for everyone. Even if I were a lesbian I’d need other people in my life than my girlfriend. He does understand, but why should any guy all the burden? That’s unrealistic, and not cynical at all. It’s kind. I get emotionally exhausted when I have a friend that comes to me ALL the time, too.


  142. @M3
    You are too good to us, sir.


  143. @ Anna @ All

    i want the all the inmates in the asylum to be comfortable.


  144. Ah…that explains this comfortable *hugging jacket”, then. :)


  145. My husband and I have been together a long time and he is certainly interested in me for more than just sex, but generally speaking, that’s what men are interested in. I know this because I have dated a lot of men. I know men.

    There isn’t such a thing as a heterosexual male who would be “equally into fashion”. That would be a gay guy. That you don’t know this tells me you are very inexperienced with men.

    Ask your boyfriend how long he would be with you if you weren’t going to have sex with him for an indefinite period of time. (Now, there are plenty of men who will wait until marriage to have sex with a woman, but there still is going to be sex at the end of the wait.)


  146. @Carolina
    I’d appreciate if you’d stop talking down to me (and Anna) and treating me like a 15 year old that’s never been out in the world.

    I know what men are like. I’ve dated quite a lot of them. I’m in a 3.5 year relationship with one. One thing I’ve learned is that they are *gasp* individuals. I think you’re the one that’s been sheltered if you’ve never met various types of men. I know several guys that are into fashion, and are actually fashion designers, and are totally straight. It also depends on where in the country you are. Metropolitan areas tend to break the stereotypes and embrace the fact that not *just* gay men like fashion. Men in rural areas that might enjoy fashion would be ostracized.

    And sex is part of relationships, dearest. Guys are not the only ones who like it or need it. That’s part of the understanding of being in a relationship. I don’t understand why that’s pertinent. I wouldn’t stay with my boyfriend, either, if he decided we shouldn’t have sex; it goes both ways. My boyfriend isn’t tolerating me just so he can fuck me a couple times a week, nor am I tolerating him just so I can “dump” all my feelings on him.

    I’m on the threshold of my 30th bday; I’m not some doe-eyed 20 year old who thinks guys just want to cuddle all night and that’s all. I really dislike generalities. No one guy can speak for all others. Yes, they like sex. Yes, it’s part of the deal with you get in a relationship. But, I dunno about you, but I’m not being “tolerated”.


  147. Woo, an end to those blasted nested comments. The water feels suddenly quite warm ;)


  148. @ Carolina

    Agreed. Sex is the primary basis for all heterosexual males to get together with females. It is only the existence of the feminine imperative that requires of men to get to know women as a requirement towards satisfying a relationship. If this were not the case, there would have been no NiceGuys of OKCupid to speak of because none of those guys would be wanting to get to know women BEFORE sex.

    All the wonderfull smushy feelgood things people discover about each other are byproducts of trying to form a lasting sexual relationship. They’re a bonus. A part of the bonding experience. But no guy… NO GUY.. with a straight face or without lying can say he engages any woman (unless the shared interests are identical and serve his purposes) for the purpose of discovering anything about her if it can’t possibly lead to a sexual relationship.

    I do not make a habbit of learning the intimate details or share gossip or listen to emo hysterical rants from the lady folk in the office. It does not serve any purpose to me to waste my mental or emotional reserves on women who will not reciprocate my needs.

    As a woman, you may indeed be a wonderful super awesomesauce person.. but i have no desire to get to know all about you if you don’t care to at some point tell me how badly you want me.

    My ex wife was not just a pussy with legs. She was a person, with goals, dreams, desires, quirks, etc… and i got to know everything about her intimately. But at the forefront of that decision was Yes i want sex with her and No i will not provide emotional platonic simpering to her JUST BECAUSE.. i need a return.

    This isn’t rocket science…


  149. Nesting is dead. Enjoy using the @ feature

    yay


  150. Alright… who pee’d the pool?


  151. @M3

    Okay,we are going to need a camcorder, a kiddie pool, some dirt, and a bucket or two of warm water. Got it?


  152. I have to sort of agree with Carolina here. I wouldn’t want to date a guy who was exactly like me. I wouldn’t need or want him to have the same interests as me across the board. Of course, I like us to have *some* overlapping interests. But I find that the sexual attraction I feel for a guy is based on the many ways he is *not like me*. His masculine interests, his masculine manner, his impenetrable masculine frame…that is what I find sexy and exciting. I enjoy the exquisite tension of his masculinity juxtaposed with my femininity. That is, again, probably because I prefer a complementarian relationship. I don’t need a guy to sit and listen to me as I talk about my day and validate my feelings about my day. That is why I have girlfriends. I think it’s not a matter of who’s right and who’s wrong but rather what each of us, as individuals, prefers in our relationships. Maybe people who prefer an egalitarian dynamic would seek out a person that is very similar to themselves, whereas people who prefer a complementarian dynamic seek out partners that are more dissimilar, thus two halves making a whole. Anna, you are probably the kind of girlfriend most guys dream of having. Just cool and easy going without all those icky emotions : ) I’m pretty easy going too but I, unfortunately, have lots of feelings…I have feelings about my feelings. I wouldn’t expect or want any guy to put up with that nonsense. That’s why I pay a therapist to listen to me : ) But that’s also why I am more attracted to rational men who are a lot less given to emotion. They even me out a little.


  153. Thanks for the props, Gwen, but I do have emotions. I just cover them up very well (Spock is like, my *idol*) lol. There’s a time and place for dealing with tough emotions…but I’ve found that many times if you take a mental step back, there are very few of those.

    Instead of letting something inconsequential bother me to the point of being “emotional”, I think of ways that it could have a funny spin, or at least imagine logical reasons for it happening. It’s kind of like if you fall down a flight of stairs unhurt: You can cry about how stupid you look sitting on your ass because you failed your Dex roll…OR you can realize you look stupid and laugh with everyone else.

    By the way, this *did* once happen to me in 8th grade, with about 50 other kids and 2 teachers around. Hoo boy, when I started laughing, the teachers were uber concerned I hit my head on the way down. Luckily I’ve got a noggin like concrete, lol.


  154. @Cara I never said women were just “tolerated”. I said men are primarily interested in women for sex.

    Men more than “like sex”. They are with us because of sex. That’s why a woman’s looks are so important to them.

    If you were to tell every man you meet that you hate sex and are never going to have it again, watch how fast they run from you. That includes your current boyfriend.

    Read what M3 has to say about this discussion.

    I’ve lived all over world, and have hardly been sheltered. I’ve lived is San Francisco with gay men in the Castro. I can assure you, if a man is into fashion like I am, he’s a screaming queen.

    I’m sorry, I just assumed you were a teen from your comments about men.


  155. @Carolina

    But…I really don’t think Cara is saying that.
    And just in case you think I’m a youngling, I want you to know that I’m 27, am in a 6 yr old relationship, have had all male friends since I was about 14, and deeply care about the majority of menfolk in my life.

    I also love “Big Bang Theory” and have a pet rat named Trigon…but that’s neither here nor there. :)


  156. @Carolina
    The fact that you’re still insisting only gay men are into fashion makes me think you’re not as wordly as you think you are. Nashville is full of straight men interested in fashion (lived there three years). I really don’t get why you think fashion and homosexuality are synonymous, even if stereotypical. Your worldview doesn’t seem to allow for outliers.

    I’ve seen what M3 has to say. He doesn’t speak for his entire gender. Maybe he speaks for the majority, but not all. I’m not going to bother giving any more personal anecdotes. You seem to buy into black and white gender roles, and deviating from those roles seems to automatically make someone a homosexual. I know a few people who wouldn’t like your generalizations.

    Okay men LIVE for sex. I get it. You don’t have to beat it into my head anymore because I’m well aware of it. But, on rare occasion, guys do have and keep friends that are females. It’s not common, but it’s not like I’m claiming to have seen Big Foot but can only provide fuzzy images. I know these people. Your world travels don’t make you the expert. I think we’re both well-traveled and have *obviously* had a different experiences.

    So… yay! Most* guys only put up with “simpering” women for sex, but not all of us are pathetic drama queens with an IQ that only allows us to talk about our shoes or cry at Hallmark movies. Sooo… yeah. Not everyone fits in the same mold.


  157. “not all of us are pathetic drama queens with an IQ that only allows us to talk about our shoes or cry at Hallmark movies.”

    True, some are very intelligent, strong independent women that talk about shoes and cry at artsy movies.

    We’re talking generalizations here. There’s no need for the “not – all” argument. Truth is none if you fit the norm, or you wouldnt be commenting here. You’d be talking about shoes and boyfriends….

    Wait, all of you ARE talking about boyfriends. You’re not that rare.


  158. *none OF you fit the norm.


  159. Cara;

    The problem of outliers isn’t that they’re wrong. It’s that they’re the minority. You may have unique male friends who prostrate themselves and love investing in women they have no sexual interest in.

    Not the norm.

    You know what other outlier group took their message mainstream?

    Feminists.

    As an aside, I note you weren’t amused by the word simpering. But again you’re just showing truth of the imperatives will. That a male *should* give of his time, emotion, and platonic commitment to a female without wanting the sexual intimacy in return. So cruel is man for not being interested in women without a sexual thought.

    How would you react if I said ‘guys should just expect blowjobs from chicks they hang out with… commitment? Getting to know her? Why? Every girl should just want to give you a blowjob just because. Only takes a few minutes, no effort, easy peasy everyone happy.’

    That’s the male imperative. And its deemed heinous. Because its an extraction of a resourse from women on men whom they might not wish to share a bj with.

    Yet society enjoys telling me I’m a shallow fucking idiot for refusing to part with all my ‘great extra beta’ qualities with women I’m not particularly interested in sharing them with.

    Women-gatekeepers of sex & Bjs
    Men-gatekeepers of commitment.. all types.

    And forever shall it be no matter how enlightened our civilization or how many outliers wish it weren’t so.


  160. “A heterosexual single woman who is friends with a married man is treading on thin ice. She better watch her step or she is going to find herself on the receiving end of ugly accusations from the wife, whether they are deserved or not.”

    As a single guy who’se friends with a number married _couples_, I’d edit this – it is possible to be friends with married women as long as you set some very strict boundaries in your behavior, and befriend the same-gender member of the marriage as part of the relationship.

    Think of them as a cross between friends and siblings, and don’t do (or think of doing) anything with them you wouldn’t want their partner to watch.


  161. @M3 – That is so. much. truth. *Most* men just do not befriend women that they don’t want to have sex with. *Most* beta men orbit women because they want to sex them up eventually and think that being the shoulder to cry is going to facilitate that eventuality. They “put up” with the female emotion and interests because they hope it will end with fucking. There is nothing heinous about guys for hoping for that, in my opinion. The only thing heinous about it is that they have been misled into believing that this will actually work. Women who have male friends are either ignorant of this fact or fully aware of it and either don’t care or use it to their advantage. *Of course* there are outliers. I wouldn’t call someone a liar because they don’t fit into this mold or know others that don’t. However, exceptions don’t change the general truth. For most men and women this is a reality. I feel the same frustration with people who deny this truth as I do with women who deny the fact that *most* women are attracted to alpha men with dominant traits. Again, there are outliers, like Anna or some of the other women who have commented here. But most women I know sexually prefer the dominant men over the beta supplicators. They may *say* otherwise, but that doesn’t make it any less true.


  162. There’s a reason those beta nice guys end up being called ‘surrogate boyfriends’. It’s because they give all the aspects of a relationship BEYOND sex.

    And this is the entitled attitude many women have due in no small part to feminism saying ‘treat women as friends first, not as sexual creatures’.

    I may have mucked up the analogies a bit but i think it would have been better to say:

    ..anyone who thinks men should as a default position normally give women the same time, energy, loyalty, inquisitiveness, openness and care without being sexually attracted to them.. should agree that women should cook for, clean up after, dote upon, laugh at the jokes, and show respect and deference to their male friends.

    Since those are the feminine beta traits women use to to supplicate their men beyond just giving sex.

    No one in their right mind would say women should take the time to be a good friend and cook me a meal. But the imperative states that *i* being a good friend must show it by spending 3+ hours listening to a woman complain about her boss, and why her love life sux, and spend time with her at a dog park, or listen to her thoughts about contemporary music, or listen to her selection of music even tho i don’t care for it..

    and on and on and on.

    I’m going to stop this now. I think i have more comments on this thread than anyone else.

    I cede the floor to other voices. I’m tired of belaboring the point. Kudos to all who survived my rant.


  163. @Gwen
    I think I love you. (In a platonic, non lesbian way, of course).

    @M3
    Hey, I’d cook you a sandwich! Lol
    It may have tofu/mycoprotein and and overwhelming amount of veggies…but I promise it would still be delicious.


  164. Yohami killed this one.

    The girls are getting their drama on, as they are prone to do.

    M3 is getting his Susan Walsh on. Comments will begin to be deleted by next week for crimes such as ‘snowflaking’ and ‘NAWALTing’.

    Vicomte is tempted to ask Anna what her relationship with her father was like. Is not sure if girl rules apply, so asks in third person.


  165. Vicomte,

    Oh. my. deep. fried. jesus.. that made me bust my spleen.

    Thank you!


  166. @M3
    I don’t know where you got that I’ve now said I think men *should* be friends with women. I don’t think anyone should be in a relationship of any type they don’t want to be in. If you don’t want females as friends, fine. I think that’s your/men’s prerogative.

    What I’m having trouble wrapping my little girlie brain around is that you seem to dislike women. You find them sooo irritating, and the only thing that makes their presence tolerable is fucking them. When you describe them the way you do (simpering, etc), how can I come to any other conclusion than you simply don’t like females? Merely being in their company and having a conversation with them is awful enough that it merits a reward for the pain? I don’t equate blow jobs with conversation. I equate blow jobs with you being expected to pay for a female’s dinner. I equate a conversation with a woman with watching football on Sundays.

    Right, sure. No one expects girls to give BJs to any guy she’s interested. But… if a chick wants to give good head, she needs practice. No? And maybe she’ll have to give a few BJs to a few guys with no promise of romance. Some dudes don’t have the patience to teach girls what to do; they prefer the experienced ones. I dated *that* guy when I was younger. I didn’t last long because I wasn’t on his level apparently. Whatever. I had no right to demand he be patient with me. I’ve since learned a few tricks.

    Similarly, girls want to date guys who are experienced… not beta. And Mr Beta can’t get experience until he gives away some of his time pro-Bono. It’s a fact. He’s obviously not going to win them over on looks or Star Wars knowledge, and sweaty palms and quivering lips aren’t sexy. He has to hang out with chicks on a (oh noez!!!) platonic level so he can get comfortable with them… so they’re not these scary, mysterious, uncontrollable-boner inducing vamps.

    I have a guy friend that I’ve watched (and helped) blossom from a 25 year old dorky virgin into someone who has threesomes on the regular. He’s currently in the fortuitous position of choosing between a girl that told him she just wants to fuck (the condition being that he wasn’t allowed to have feelings for her) and a girl that he’s liked for a while finally deciding she wants him. He’s gone from always being in the “friend zone” to having lots of escapades. And you know what helped him? Having friends that were girls. He got comfortable with them. He grew confident. They stopped being scary. Yeah, this guy had a huge fucking crush on me at one point. That obviously never happened, but we still talk… and I gave him the advice to stick with the “fling chick” until he finds out whether the thing with the other chick is legit, and that he doesn’t owe either girl anything since girl A told him she just wants to fuck, and girl B already blew him off once. It’s been really cool to see him go from being a “nice guy” to someone playing the hell out of the field.

    But if “nice guys” think it’s too much to endure the almost unbearable presence of females without sex? Good luck, I say. I don’t think they should have to do anything they don’t want to.


  167. @Vicomte

    Well, I don’t even know what the heck “girl rules” are, so I elect to just be honest. Hope that works for you…but I’ll give you fair warning, it’s not pretty.

    I didn’t even know I HAD a father til I was about 5, and he suddenly wanted visitation. He and my mother had divorced about the time I turned 1. He admited he used to beat her (I’ve seen the pictures) and admitted that he on at least two occasions threatened to kkill my mom’s parents. He is very much an alcoholic, and I stopped seeing him when I turned 14…he scared me that much. Having things thrown at me and getting screamed at was NOT how I enjoyed spending every other weekend.

    Mom got remarried when I was 8. All was fine for a while, then I hit puberty at 11. Then for the next 6+ years I became my stepdad’s “favorite” daughter. Yes, it means what you think it means. I finally got enough money for the deposit on an apartment, and moved out 2 months short of my 18th birthday.

    All in all, had very piss poor adult male role models. If it wasn’t for my friends showing me how REAL guys are supposed to be…I’d probably hate you all.

    I am so glad I didn’t let myself think that way. We are all individuals, and no man should have to pay for another’s crimes/mistakes. I guess that’s why I sometimes have problems with generalizations based on gender…


  168. Hey M3, am I supposed to put up Trigger Warning labels, fluffy kittens and unicorns farting rainbows now to make everyone feel better? I don’t want to offend anyone… :P

    Seriously though, no feeling bad for Anna. I *did* have aspects of my life that were awesome and great. I had my faith in the Lady and Lord to help me through times when I was alone, and I had my friends the other times (even though I never told any of them what was happening with either father). My life doesn’t need a pity party…so if any of you try to send me “virtual hugs” or some crap, it will be on like Donkey frickin’ Kong.

    Thank you. :)


  169. Thanks, Anna.

    Not to pathologize your disposition, but I suspected there might have been circumstances that contributed to your rather unique mindset.

    So, let’s virtual hu–, uh, rub some dirt on it and walk it off.

    And watch out for that barrel.


  170. @ Anna

    Offend away. No trigger warnings unless you’re armed.

    And Unicorns are Jerks.


  171. [...] being nice; don’t invest in women. Related: The crime of being nice. Related: It doesn’t matter; reality wins in the end. Related: Schwyzer was right. Nice guys are [...]


  172. @M3
    Wow, you’re right…unicorns suck.

    @Vicomte
    Dude, I am like frickin’ Jumpman!
    And, yeah. You’re probably right about my “unique mindset”. But let’s not talk about that…you most likely charge by the hour, and I’ll just end up making Spaceballs and/or Life of Brian references the whole time anyway. Not possible to have a therapy session with someone who uses humor as a security blanket, you know? ;)


  173. @Anna

    Mom got remarried when I was 8. All was fine for a while, then I hit puberty at 11. Then for the next 6+ years I became my stepdad’s “favorite” daughter. Yes, it means what you think it means. I finally got enough money for the deposit on an apartment, and moved out 2 months short of my 18th birthday.

    Yikes. That’s horrible. Glad you got out of there.

    Couldn’t your mother have divorced him or something? Or was she playing the “see no evil” game?


  174. @Durasim

    No, I never told her. No one in the family knows what happened other than him and myself. I think she kind of knows, because I refuse to visit the house when he’s there…but I’m not 100% sure.

    Whatever. The past is the past. None of us can change it, and it’ll always affect our perceptions at least a little. However, you can choose to become a victim and let it harm you…or be a survivor and rise above it.

    I chose the latter. It makes more sense.


  175. no wonder you’re not into domination as an attractive trait


  176. *dominance


  177. @ann – if it happened to you, chances are you’re not the only one he’s messing with. Seriously consider telling the authorities this.


  178. Of course there’s always going to be one male out there who can be friends with a woman.

    There’s probably one guy who isn’t gay who likes fashion. Generally speaking, this is not the case.

    Here is a list of the top male fashion designers:

    Tom Ford
    Versace
    Claude Montana
    Karl Lagerfield
    Zac Posen
    Proenza Schuler (it’s two guys really)
    Thierry Mugler
    Alexander McQueen
    Calvin Klein
    Ferragamo
    Yves St Laurent
    Alexander Wang
    Bob Mackie
    Bill Blass
    Christian Dior
    Christian Louboutin
    Azzedine Alaia
    Christian Lacroix
    Dries van Noten
    Giorgio Armani
    Cristóbal Balenciaga
    Jean Paul Gaultier
    Hubert de Givenchy
    Badgley Mischka
    Michael Kors
    Valentino
    Galliano
    Pierre Cardin
    Willi Smith
    Marc Jacobs

    They are all gay. (Ralph Lauren isn’t listed because he’s bi.)

    You only think you know a lot of straight men who are into fashion, but it’s obvious can’t tell a gay man from a straight one.

    That you would think there could be many straight dudes “into fashion” shows you don’t know jack about hetero males.

    I only picked fashion as an example. Hetero males are not interested making ladies’ handbags prettier. They don’t give a rat’s ass about sequins, ribbons, bows and lace. Their brain isn’t wired that way.

    I didn’t say that men only put up with women for sex. Men can love us, enjoy our company, etc. but sex has to be a part of it. They aren’t with us for our personalities.


  179. The fashion thing is pretty simple:

    An interest in men’s fashion is something all men can and should develop, to a point. This point being ‘I know what I like, what works, and what looks good on me’. I have the Guess jackets and outerwear page bookmarked, and routinely lament the loss of a particular grey leather jacket from two fall collections ago. And the blatant switch to vanity sizing. I used to wear a medium and now I have to get the extra fucking small. They cut the shirts wider, too. Bastards.

    An interest in high fashion or women’s fashion is gay. Endey fuckin’ storey, as Francis Begbie would say.

    An experiment for men:

    Check out the Guess website. You will probably see some things you like.

    Then, go to the Diesel website. You will probably see a lot of really gay things.

    If you’re twelve, go to the Burberry website to see what you would look like with makeup on while wearing a three thousand dollar trench coat.


  180. [...] M3 – The Crime of Being Nice [...]


  181. I figured this all out, but much too late:
    “Nice Guys” are


  182. The Nice Guy, 2-Time-Loser Dilemma:
    hopelessly desiring hotties while trying to outrun the fatties:

    - Hot Girls are constantly hit upon. Any Nice Guy who doesn’t come come across sexually in the beginning is automatically tossed into her “Just Friends” dept.. And he will remain there in her mind. After all, she already has lots of “friends” but when’s she’s ready for some action, she’s got loads of obvious suitors to chose from.

    - Unhot girls (the old, fat or desperate) are simply not used to male attention. They are invisible to most self-respecting guys, and resent the attention guys give to the hotter girls around them. So, if a typical Nice Guy shows her any kind of attention, professional respect, or simple courtesy – he automatically get tossed into her “Romantic Interest” dept.. And he will stay there for a long while in her obsessive mind.


  183. Re the male escalation from Acquaintance – Friend – Potential Romance, you only need look at 1980s male-voiced love songs…

    For example- REO SPeedwagon – Can’t Fight This Feeling. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uJ0AJST8uY


  184. […] Top feminist researchers discover a new way of humiliating “nice guys.” […]


  185. […] feminist who uses the ‘worth’ argument is a mirror of the NiceGuys of OKCupid argument. They become what they despise. They complain about NiceGuys not being ‘nice’ […]


  186. First, this is not a discussion – this is you shaming women for saying what our experiences with men are. Which, while you may not believe this, WOMEN are the only ones that truly know how it feels to be treated a certain way for WOMEN. That’s how things work.
    That you also began this attack by saying that women that have a different opinion then you on life are, and I quote, “dumb cunts”, also shows me that this is a thinly disguised attack on women, our opinions, and our choices – which, as the word implies, is OURS.
    Men can be upset over not being with someone (sexually or otherwise) that they had wanted to be with, true. But the whole point of the NiceGuy discussion is that no behavior ensures rewards. Just because you are kind to a woman, does not mean she has to be with you, or choose you over any other man she may be interested in. That, my misguided friend, is dominance. It’s men saying that if they do Action A, that women must respond with Action B. Which is never true. Women (and men) are NEVER obligated to do anything with/for another person if they do not want to. Do women like men that respect them? Maybe, maybe not. Either way, that is the woman’s decision, and bemoaning how AS A MAN you did A, B, and C, so why didn’t you get rewarded with a relationship (or ownership of the woman if you think it can be created/purchased) is not okay. Woman are not prizes to be won. We are not your consolation prize for doing the very easy act of being “a decent person”. We are autonomous beings that make our own decisions on how to interact and be and date others.
    And while it may get your male privilege back up, realize that only women can say what OUR experience with MEN – “good” or “bad” – is.



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