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Confessions of a Reformed InCel

November 17, 2012

November 17, 2012. enough is enough. i warned y’all it might get depressing. here goes. don’t worry, it ends well. i think.

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In honor of my 10,000th view.. i’m going to publish what i consider the hardest post i’ve ever written. But it needs to be written, for i may be an extreme, i know i’m not alone. This isn’t written for the PUA or the Alpha or the Pussy Slayer™. This is written for you, the one without hope..  to know there is hope and you can get better.

Thanks for the hits guys! Snapshot taken 07/09/12 at 2:33 pm after 3 weeks on the interwebz.

[actually no.. i've crossed 50k. that's how long i've been holding onto this draft, terrified of letting it go. but i saw a comment today that finally let me pull the trigger.]

It is so Very hard to hit that PUBLISH button.

Writing this post is a source of *shame* for me. It’s been sitting in my drafts for about 2 weeks [edit: 5+ months actually]

But at this point in my life having endured what i have, it does not trouble me putting it out in the sphere. I am sure i am not alone in this and that this post will actually help someone out there. Some of you may relate. Women hopefully may finally understand where my anger and cynicism stems from.

So i’ve decided to unleash it. [about time?]

Firstly, before you continue, please go read THIS POST. No offense to the author, my past wasn’t her fault.. but it struck the usual nerve with me. You need to read posts like this to let the feeling of inequality fill you up.

Welcome back..

When i read it or stories like it, these are the THINGS I FEEL (and yes, i know ‘feelings’ are the domain of a woman)

  • When i hear a woman tell me that she’s gone through a dry spell and not had sex in over X weeks/ months.. i feel like putting my fist through her face.
  • When i hear a woman tell me that she feels ugly or unloved or unwanted because her partner hasn’t touched her in over 6 months, i feel like laughing loudly 3 inches from her face.
  • When i hear a woman tell me that she just picked up a random guy for a night of fun because she was lonely, i feel like i’m glad i don’t own a gun.
  • When i hear a woman tell me that i shouldn’t feel bad about having gone without for so long, after all it’s only just sex, i feel like disfiguring her face with a scalpel.

Nature’s cruel joke and cosmic irony in one. I as a man, biologically driven365 days a year to ejaculate and produce sperm as often as possible, and having the drive and desire to want it every waning moment, who is villified for this natural urge and made to feel ashamed of my sexuality, control it and subdue it to conform to the feminine imperative… have to listen to women, who in their solipsism cannot fathom the ordeal of what i’m about to write about, women who biologically ovulate and desire sex rather infrequently compared to men, talk about, no celebrate their sexuality, their urges and desires.. and lament their short dry spells as if the world were coming to an end. They can never understand what a power differential there is in these urges.

Women can say they love sex just as much as men. I would call BS. Until there is a glut of male prostitutes, male escorts, male rub n tugs for female patrons, a demand for male sex workers and strippers i’ll say nay. Unless they’re all having alpha sex on the side perhaps? Or will touching themselves to 50 shades suffice? At least mommy porn is culturally acceptable. Women DO NOT need sex like men do.. otherwise the sphere would not exist.

Anyways.. back to my pitiful former life.

I have no pictures of myself from a time period stretching from high school to my late 20′s, save for some randoms others might have taken of me. I have no memories or recollections of my time in high school. I have no stories of parties, girlfriends or wild flings. It’s a time period i wiped from my mind, much like PTSD. The only way i can recall it is if i sit down and think really hard about it. I rarely do because i don’t like feeling like shit for the hell of it.

I was that beta/omega/zeta. I let myself get LJBF‘ed on multiple occasions being that ‘nice guy’ that male hating cunt Amanda Marcotte despises. I  played by the rules as handed down to me by the feminine authorities on what women would look for and appreciate in a man. I was asked to believe what they said, not what they did. ‘Just be yourself‘ (your nice beta supplicating self) was the golden code.

So here it is… my Incel Hell.

This is where you will stay for the next 12 years. Enjoy your stay.

<deep breath>

Living by the feminist code earned me 12 years of hell. Let that number sink in.

1

2

3

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5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

no, that went by too fast. try it this way.

365 + 365 + 365 + 365 +  365 + 365

+

365 + 365 + 365 + 365 + 365 + 365

4380 days give or take.

4380 days without being validated as a sexual being.

4380 days without physical human contact or touch.

4380 days of isolation and loneliness.

4380 days of silent suffering and silently screaming at mirrors.

4380 days of crippling ridicule and self confidence destruction by my peers.

4380 days during in what should have been the best years and height of my sexual primacy…

…give or take…

GONE.

Funny pictures required to maintain levity and lessen the urge to kill.

From the Audacious Amateur Blogger in her post about a Sex Hiatus:

Sex is P and VG but it’s also human and human. Even if it’s just for a night, it lets you feel you’re not alone in the world, you shared a biological imperative with someone, you experienced their pleasure with your own.

She also captures the very essence of my whole diatribe in this little bit in her post about one years worth of life changes.

6. No one has held me, touched me, hugged me in such a long time. Humans need physical contact. I don’t feel human.

Human to Human.
I don’t feel human.

I can only imagine what a productive member of civilization i would be IF i was brought up with masculine values and was sexually sated. Instead i spent my life living out the following tale trying to figure out what my problem was and living as a manic bipolar depressive. Instead here i sit, a MGTOW, never finding enough reason or desire to become productive beyond my own means.

From the age of 18-29 i traveled a road that lead me to believe i wasn’t human, wasn’t worthy of love, wasn’t deserving of companionship and that i would probably be better off dead.

I lost my virginity at late 17 to a girl and our relationship lasted for just over 5 months. When it ended i fell into a deep depression. What i should have been told at that moment was to identify what was it about me that made me lack confidence, to fix it and to head back out into the world. To listen to the guys who were #winning

Instead i followed my feminist programming and female advice off a cliff into hell.

Feminism taught me a lot throughout the 80′s and 90′s. It taught me not to question women’s sexual choices. It taught me to treat them with deference and respect. It taught me not to accost them for sex aggressively, but to treat them as human beings. It taught me that i MUST control my shallow, greedy, dangerous impulses but allow a woman the right to indulge in hers. It taught me to be nice for the sake of being nice and not expecting sex in return. To give all my emotional and platonic ability and not dare ask for intimacy in return.

It taught me everything i needed to be creepy, unattractive and doormat ready.

And it was re-enforced by EVERY woman i talked to.

What i SHOULD have been told is “hit the gym, build some muscle, guys with muscles are hawt” – “get braces now, you’ll smile a lot and we love guys with big smiles” – “go see a dermatologist, we love sexy skin on a man” – “cut off your long hair, you don’t look like a rocker, you look like a hippy. crew cuts are sexy, you’d look good in one” – “learn a skill and become good in it. become confident in it. we love confidence”

What i got instead was a constant drumming of “you’re such a good guy, just wait, someone else is out there for you” – “you don’t have to change a thing, you’re a wonderful person, just keep being yourself” – “you don’t need muscles, only jerks care about having big muscles” – “there’s nothing wrong with you, you just need to be a bit more confident that’s all” – “confidence comes from the inside, not from the outside

Patent fucking lies all of them.

My issue was i always believed i was not handsome, rugged or built well enough to attract initial attention. I had poor self image. All the advice to the contrary, telling me I WAS OK AS I WAS allowed me to abdicate my responsibility to start working on that issue. It led me to believe people should like me for who i am, not what my exterior presents. My first cross to bear. Instead of working to fix my skin deep issues and develop a greater sense of self worth, i continued listening to that advice to find one who would appreciate me for my ‘nice‘ qualities instead. This further perpetuated the vicious circle of being constantly friendzoned or rejected outright by women. Being myself was supposed to work but badboys were winning the day. Instead of reading it properly and abandoning the beta to become the badass, i doubled down and started hating badboys and believed that women were just being misguided but they would eventually turn around and come to love the greater qualities of love, nurturing, compassion and empathy i had massive stockpiles and reserves of. I shoved all my chips to the center of the table all in, and became a HUGE white knight Mangina.

I got to have the pleasure of defending women from the barbs and negs of my player friends only to watch these same women i defended end up going home to sleep with them. My brain simply could not comprehend what the fuck was going on. What the fuck is wrong with these women? Oh Wait! I’m not allowed to question that.

One of the final straws was me being in stuck in an LJBF with a person whom i had mad loving feelings for. One day i confessed to her how i felt and told her the pain was just too great for me to bear and i needed a YES OR NO answer. She only wanted to be my friend. I said “you are going to lose that friendship… why not take the chance and give it a try?” She said no and ended that friendship rather than try a relationship with a ‘really wonderful and caring guy’. Her words.

2 weeks later she was fucking a player asshole narcissist dick in a NSA relationship. That dick was my former friend who knew how badly i wanted to be with her. He never missed an opportunity to rub it in my face how lovely her back looked. I guess she enjoyed doggy style.

She chose to fuck someone who cared not one bit for her and only used her for her vagina instead of someone who loved her. But it was OK because she was only looking for ‘fun’ and not a relationship.

My world shattered.

You can only go so long getting knocked down before you decide that it might be best to stay down. The litany of thoughts raging through my head were endless.

  • no one will ever love me
  • even the ones who ‘like’ you don’t want you
  • what chance do you have with those who don’t know you
  • no woman wants anything to do with me sexually
  • there must be something horribly wrong with me
  • i must be a hideous grotesque abomination
  • i will never feel the warmth of a woman’s skin
  • no woman will ever yearn or desire me
  • i would never look into a woman’s eyes as she drew me into her
  • i would never caress  a woman’s face
  • never again would i know what a passionate kiss felt like
  • never again would i be validated as a sexual human being
  • i don’t deserve love
  • i don’t deserve to go on, i don’t deserve to live
  • life will go on without me
  • no one will really miss me maybe
  • even if they do, no one cared enough when it mattered
  • how long would i need to run the car in the garage before i pass out
  • turn the key you coward
  • mom will find my body in the garage
  • she will understand, she knows you’ve been suffering
  • i might chicken out, i can’t do it this way
  • where can i get a gun
  • i can’t get one. but a pellet gun looks real..
  • maybe i can stage a bank heist, take hostages, wait for the cops and force them to do it
  • death by cop
  • i hope it doesn’t hurt too much when i die

This isn’t hyperbole. I lived those scenarios out in my mind numerous times. For all intents and purposes i was an evolutionary failure. With so much FAIL, my body began to realize it was not going to fulfill it’s primary biological function of reproduction and had begun to contemplate ways of me to expedite my removal from the gene pool. Death felt like my only answer.

Respect, Love Acceptance, Belonging. Not for me? OK. Russian roulette sounds fun at this point.

I don’t think many females on this planet can contemplate or wrap their head around the gravity of this.

  • I (and most men) cannot just walk into a bar, bat our eyelashes and get sexual validation on a moments notice for a quick ‘pick me up’
  • It’s not just about ‘sex’. (well, for me anyways)

It’s about the connection sex implies. Of being wanted, desired, to be loved both mentally and physically, to be validated, to share, to connect, feel alive, be human. Or maybe i just view sex differently than your average slut if they only view it as ‘just sex‘. Lately i’ve gotten the sense that a majority of men (read Beta/Delta/Omega) place more emotional ties to sex than women (and i’ve read a lot about how men are the more romantic sex).. which is so far removed from the script i grew up hearing that men are primal pigs and women want loving nurturing sex and commitment. But i always have to go back to Badger’s mind blowing comment he made here some time ago:

And women never seem to understand that sexual access is the highest, most direct assignment of value they can give a man – they think they are complimenting men when they tell them “you’re a great guy and you’ll make some woman really lucky someday! Those badboys I sleep with are just short-term flings, I’m not serious about them.”

F that noise. It also puts the lie to the conventional wisdom that sex is REALLY REALLY DEEP and IMPORTANT to women, and they won’t give it away except to a guy they think is a really good match.

Suffice it to say, somehow i held on. But i lost a huge part of my soul in the process and have been forever damaged by it. This isn’t something you ever recover from, you only bury it and keep piling more dirt over it, hoping to level out the massive bump, but it’s always there.

MOAR. DUMP MOAR DIRT. I CAN’T BURY THIS FUCKING THING! MOAR!

Misogyny. It doesn’t appear out of thin air.

Here’s the kicker.

Everytime… EVERY.MOTHER.FUCKING.TIME i could have taken corrective action, i was lied to. Each time my buddies told me that i had to become an asshole, (their way of saying don’t listen to what a woman wants, do what they go for) i was once again led astray by a woman.

By my mother
By my teachers
By magazine articles
By other girls i asked advice for
By Oprah
By my friendzone crush and object of my desire.
(and yes.. by my marriage counselor)

Unequivocally.

I can still remember getting mad enough after a while that i started acting like a dick. After all what i was previously doing wasn’t working.. try something new right? And what did the girl i crushed on tell me when she didn’t like my new attitude?

“YOU DON’T WANT TO BECOME AN ASSHOLE LIKE THAT, I KNOW YOU TOO WELL, DON’T CHANGE, YOU’RE SUCH A NICE PERSON INSIDE, DON’T RUIN YOURSELF“.

That line reverberated in my head everytime i knew my asshole friend was at her place fucking her like an animal.

Hence all the THINGS I FEEL at the start of this post. It’s visceral. I can’t control it. It’s a part of me now. I can only manage it. But to each and every one of those women who i used in the above THINGS I FEEL section, it is my firm belief that you simply have NO CLUE what loneliness is unless you’ve contemplated what gun metal tastes like as it rubs against your tongue pressing into the roof of your mouth.

If you truly believe that after 2 weeks, 3 months, a year of not having physical relations with the opposite sex is true suffering.. i ask you if you felt your life was in danger. If not.. you’re not suffering enough. If so.. TRY IT FOR 12 YEARS and get back to me.

I as a man, am programmed to want it almost every day, vilified for wanting it, and taught to be shameful of it, and to conform to a certain way of thinking to acquire it.

Women, who desire it mainly during ovulation, control the access of it and demand a resource extraction for it, FREELY cough it up wantonly when the mood strikes, not for ‘mating’ but for fun, to embrace it, explore it, enjoy it and with those more often than not, least worthy of it in terms of commitment or sticking around if pregnancy ensues.

This post makes me angry. It makes me feel a lot of things. Hurt. Shame. A sense of loss. Imprisoned in time. Time i’ll never get back.

It would have been better if i lost 12 years doing hard time in prison. At least i’d have an excuse. At least i’d have some badboy cred. Maybe even a tattoo?

In fact, you could call this my own personal rape. I’m sure women will be up in arms for me calling it that, but what is the criteria for it? I feel shame. I am unable to talk about it with others. I will invariably be blamed for the outcome i suffered because of the way *I* acted. Being beta was ‘wearing a miniskirt’. Acting like a NiceGuy was ‘being overly flirtatious’. Respecting women and pedestalizing them was going up to a guys room at 2am for a late night coffee.

I deserved it for being unattractive. You deserved it for being too attractive. We both got fucked and not in the way we wanted it.

You had no power and had violation inflicted upon you. I had no power or right to feel like a human being inflicted upon me.

You were penetrated against your will. Feminism and woman bent me over and fucked me up the ass while laughing at me.

We both wanted death.

Yet i was a source of ridicule, you are the poster child of Slutwalk.

And so it is.

But you can’t go back, you can only move forward and try and make the best of the time you got left. I do my best to leave it in the past as these feelings will not help me move forward in life, or allow me to be happy. But the bitterness of having been put on that path that scarred me forever by a bunch of lying misguided nonsensical feminine/feminist talking points about men being more in touch with their feelings and women preferring ‘nice‘ qualities over brutish, decisive, dominant behavior.. well i don’t think it will ever fade with time.

I paid a heavy price for believing it.

A DRY SPELL ENDS

I was at a nightclub celebrating the 30th birthday of my now ex-wife. I was 29. I really hated clubs, the atmosphere, the pretension, the obnoxious ego inflated women, overpriced alcohol, etc.. so i cut out of the party early and grabbed a taxi. I was in such a foul mood for having been there and just feeling miserable. So i told the cabby to go to the strip club i was familiar with. Inside i watched a sweet thin Polish girl dancing so i went to perv row. Since i was so angry at the world inside i must have subdued my NiceGuy™ really well, because i went full Dark Triad on this girl, and i had no clue that that term existed at the time. Finally i took her to the back for a quick dance.  I told her she was beautiful and she blushed. I asked her if she had a boyfriend and she said yes. I don’t know why but then i asked her if she was pissed off at him. I had no real reason to ask, i just did. She quickly opened up and said yes and started explaining why, all the while im touching her in all the right places. So i tell her “why don’t we go back to your place and give him something to really be pissed about”.. i guess my hands were doing the trick because she reached down and felt up my dick and said “im going to tell the DJ im ending early, meet me in the lot in 15 minutes”.

I didn’t even pay for the dance.

That night i discovered something. That 12 years of watching good quality euro porn helps you understand where and how to touch a woman in just the right places. The one thing i was terrified of was how long i’d last, and amazingly enough, not only did i go all night and give her two big OHHH’s… i actually had to fake my orgasm. I could have kept going. I couldn’t explain it, and i didn’t care to. My confidence level shot up to over 9000.

Confidence doesn’t come from inside as i had been lied to over the years. It grows over time through external validations of success. If you repeat the success you become more confident. Fail enough times and the confidence suffers. Just be confident they said, fucking idiots. Nailing this stripper and nailing her like a boss did the trick!

Over the course of the next year i would bang 3 more strippers, [stripper game, i had no fucking idea but looky here - link] getting into a casual with two of them for a time. I even fucked one inside the club.. and let me tell you the bouncer was a scary guy so i was playing with fire but damn what a thrill! I’ll never forget how wide eyed that cute Puerto Rican girl got when i eviscerated her buttugly girlfriend right in front of her when she called me ‘gay or something’ when i refused to go for a dance with her entitled ass. Soon as the ugly was gone, Latina heat dragged me into the VIP. 1 condom. 0 dollars. 1 sweet fuck. Priceless.

The girls of HookingUpSmart raked me over the coals for having such low class as to actually have sex with strippers. [yeah, ladies who are beautiful who take off their clothes for men for money fucking me for free perish the thought] Such a low opinion of me they had, that they debated if i was even worth going out with on a date if they knew i’d been with those strippers. My 12 years of hell were not mitigating enough to allay the stigma. Those dirty low class strippers..

Strippers who treated me as more human than the women i actually loved. Even the crazy one who stabbed her mother.

The knowledge of me banging strippers actually played to my advantage [preselection?] and allowed me to once again hook up with my ex-girlfriend who later became my wife. She seemed to enjoy quizzing me every so often as to how she compared to those ‘Ladies of the Night’ as she called them, always seeking validation that she stacked up and cut the muster. And much sexual satisfaction was to be had for a nice long time. Of course that was until the wife became unhaaapy with my reversion to betatude and showed me the door. That’s when i finally delved into the realm of the internet and discovered about Game, dominance, attraction triggers, evo psych, mra’s, pua’s, the manosphere. All the pretty lies perished, like domino’s falling in unison.

With the knowledge i acquired, the discipline of weight training and building up a body i am proud of and not ashamed of, learning how to be social, burying the beta and believing in my worth i finally am at a point in life where I have changed my views and outlook. I am not ruled by pussy.. i conquer it on my terms or leave it to it’s own useless fate. I’ve adopted an MGTOW lifestyle, do things with myself in mind first and foremost following my own imperative, will only entertain relationships with women who qualify themselves to me by bringing more to the table than pretty looks and a vagina, else they just get a pump n dump. The ability to not blink when i destroyed my final toxic LJBFzone relationship with an emotional vampire who expected all the benefits of relationship without returning what i needed.

5 years ago i’d have be in my room crying over it or worse, apologizing to her for hurting her feelings. Today, i stand tall and say FUCK IT, my own needs and interests come first before anyone else and im ready to move on to find one who desires and deserves all the awesomeness i have to give. I don’t care how angry she got or how any feminist might say i just played nice to get in her pants. I’M THROUGH PLAYING NICE. I’m built, confident, nothing left to prove, cannot be persuaded by the power of pussy, and doing what i like for myself. I don’t fall on my sword for the needs of others. Look to thine own ass first is the creedo.

It was a long and painful fuckless road for me, one i wish i didn’t have to go down. But i don’t get a mulligan, there are no re-do’s, there is no respawn. Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, and i’m still here. So i pause, reflect, introspect, identify, analyze and correct where i went wrong in the attempt to never repeat the mistakes, those fucking bluepill mistakes ever again. It’s called LEARNING and PERSONAL GROWTH. Evolution is a painful and messy affair.

But i’m feeling much better now, tho if you insist on bringing up your ‘dry spell’ story around me, just try and ignore the pained face i’m making as i envision you getting caught in a fire that melts your face off like the creepy black hatted dude in Raiders of the Lost Ark and so then you’ll know what a real dry spell is.

You haven’t a fucking clue what a dry spell is.

Some may say this was one long pitiful rant. Meh.. you could be right. But i feel it needed to be told, this tale of misery to triumph. As i see it, my part in this tale is over, my chapter is done. I’m too old to do anything about it now, you can’t go back. All i can do is keep my promise to not expend my valued time, energy or resources propping up a happy, had her fun with alpha’s and now settle with beta bux little old moi. Nope. I’m going lone wolf alpha and enjoying the rest of my life on my terms as i see fit. This isn’t about me anymore.

It’s about the next ‘me’ who’s in highschool or college right now, who’s sitting in his room alone at night wondering why some girl he really likes and treats well is off fucking some dude she just met at the bar. Who’s being ignored because of rampant hypergamy, inflated ego’s and facebook attention whores who vastly overrate their sex rank and will be lining up to get slaughtered by PUA’s and frat boys, only to go to complain to that poor, introverted, incel beta LJBF in training that all men are assholes and how if only she could find someone like him.

I want to break the endless cycle of suffering and teach these kids in high school to tell these evil leeches to go fuck themselves, break the LJBF, WORK OUT, build some mass, educate yourself, IGNORE the bitches and focus on yourself instead of chasing them and inflating their ego’s. You’ll be better off in the long run and well ahead of the game.

And you don’t have to worry about me. I keep at it p90x style, keep my body tight, i keep socializing, i keep looking for that diamond in the rough, i won’t reward entitled bitches with mind blowing orgasms but leave them to their pump and dump fates. I look 10,000 times better than i did before and can Dark Game tight young strippers again if i so choose. I have an open relationship married girl on the side (married ladies seem to love me, why?), i’m throwing innuendo at anything that’s got long legs and a vagina, i have the power to banish anything that flakes or cold shoulders me, i do not yield an inch to the power of pussy, and i’ve discovered a new form of Game that works for what i’m looking for in a woman. I call it Atheist game (soon to be post for my religious friends/readers). Let’s just say, the cute chaste and loyal good looking girl i’m looking for, is easier to spot when you play yourself as the devil and they don’t fail. This is what i want most. Reading the Rawness made me realize i will not heal my soul by going on a pump n dump spree nor make me a better person. No bandaids on fatal wounds.

Moving on Redpill style.

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Epilogue:

So now you know where my cynicism and rage comes from. Now you know why it’s not a healthy idea for me to ‘man up and marry a slut’. Now you know why i hate feminism and it’s evil ideology. Now you know why i view slutty behavior as i do. Now you know why i intrinsically never believe what women say at face value, i only follow what they do.

Now you know why feminists call me a woman hater and a misogynist. The funny thing is i practiced feminism to the letter, and by treating women as human beings and respecting them as prescribed. I loved women and cared for women. I did all those nice things not simply to get into their pants, but because i was a decent human being, a human male, and someone who *wanted* to get into  a loving relationship with a woman.

And by loving women the way feminism asked, i was nearly destroyed for it.

Misogyny. No child was ever born with it. And here’s an ethical question for you to ponder. Yeah.. no one is ‘entitled’ to pussy, but for all the guys who have trouble mating due to Hypergamy-Gone-Wild™ (or as i call; the new normal).. what should we do with them? Euthanize them?

I’m sure there was more i could write into this, but i have to let it go at this point. And your eyes are probably bleeding, as are mine. I hope this post isn’t going to haunt me. If it keeps one young guy from taking a swan dive off a tall bridge, my work here is done. I just hope i don’t wake up thinking in my best Londo Mollari voice – “Great Maker, what have i done!”

479 comments

  1. Genetic research has shown that before the modern era, 80% of women managed to reproduce, but only 40% of men did. The obvious conclusion from this is that a few top men had multiple wives, while the bottom 60% had no mating prospects at all.


  2. @ Liz

    Wars, illness and occupational hazards probably played a big role in that genetic disparity. And yes, there was probably more cuckoldry in the past because paternity testing wasn’t around either.


  3. You really thing cuckoldry is a primary reason for the disparity? In the animal kingdom of “alpha males” how many males in proportion to the number of males per pack reproduce?

    I could probably look this up, but just watching animal kingdom I know it probably isn’t a very large number.

    We aren’t herd animals, but I am about as sure as can be the opportunity to score sex is at least as easy for a male today as it has ever been or more (assuming he isn’t terribly choosy). And that manwithaplan’s post is candidly scary.


  4. ” I am about as sure as can be the opportunity to score sex is at least as easy for a male today”

    haha. no. multiply your estimations by x1000 if we’re talking about the average men. that’s why there are prostitutes.


  5. FWIW, my aforementioned statistics were copied and pasted from the following article entitled the misandry bubble, hat tip The Futurist. One of the best and most comprehensive I’ve read (doesn’t mean I’m in 100 percent agreement, but I seldom agree with anything entirely):

    http://www.singularity2050.com/2010/01/the-misandry-bubble.html


  6. As always, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Feminism is correct on many levels about male nature, which is why they are so adept at manipulating men. Many betas do hold noxious views on gender, race, class, etc which offend women’s desire for a happier, better world. Women perceive such views as insecurity (low status, fear of sexual competition) and thus avoid and/or use such men. Many betas also hold solipsistic madonna/whore worldviews, where casual sex and n-count is viewed as something that permanently degrades women’s social status and mating market value (MMV). This is part of the reason why women tend to fuck men of higher social status and higher n-count, because it “offsets” the status loss she will take as a result of sex, and a man with a higher n-count won’t see her n-count as intimidating. Eg., if the girl is a 6 and having casual sex gives her a status hit of -2, then she needs to bang a guy who is an 8 just to maintain her status.

    Alphas and bad boys tend to view sex as a status uplifting event for the woman, i.e. “a woman would be lucky to be fucked by someone as awesome as me.” Alphas also understand and accept that women objectify men (for social, physical and financial alpha traits) as much as men objectify women, and that women want/need sex. Betas and nice guys don’t understand this point, and deep down do believe that women should only like men for nice or good qualities, and that women can be “convinced” to like them. Women/feminists can sense this and use it against such men. Fact is, women know immediately if they like the guy or not – because they objectify men and already “know” where “you” (your type of guy) fit into their ranking system – which is a very different type of ranking system that men use.

    Game and MRA are also correct about women on many points . Female sexual empowerment can often mean that women as a group mainly fuck those men who are most sexy (alphas, bad boys) to them, and then also feel entitled to the support (financial, emotional, etc) of betas and nice guys. Women seem to have no problem with a sociosexual marketplace where there is a top tier of men who are extremely sociosexually wealthy and beta/omega masses who are starving. This is women’s hypergamous lover/provider complex, the flipside of men’s madonna/whore complex.

    What it comes down to is that the genders can become caught in a vicious cycle, where men’s madonna/whore is countered by women’s lover/provider – both of which mean less of what each gender wants. Men would get far more casual sex by moderating madonna/whore, and women would get far more committed relationships by moderating lover/provider.


  7. Move to an Asian country before the radical feminism hits there


  8. Kind of a circular, ‘Chicken or Egg’ argument you got there.

    The reality is that women dont sleep with the betas because women are selective to begin with and find fewer men sexually attractive.
    This disgruntles the betas and in reponse they develop the view that a woman’s n-count degrades her relationship value.
    Not the other way round as you suggest.

    It is very understadable for a guy who never got to have his fun, who never had the opportunity to be promiscuous, have casual sex, flings, fwb, etc; to expect a woman with a similar sexual past for a meaningful relationship and emotional investment.

    Beta’s also know (somting that women are extremely reluctant to admit) that the number, quality and variety of men available to a woman for casual sex is much much higher than the number and quality of men available to her for LTR and marriage.

    Its very likely that before an average promiscuous woman settles down with an average beta (her equal) she would have had sex with men who are much more attractive, exciting, popular, confident and sexually able than the guy she marries. The poor guy is never going to measure up to the high quality men she’s had inside her in the past.

    It is totally understandable for a beta male who was never promiscuous to reject women who have riddden the alpha cock carousel.

    Why dont promiscuous and sexually adventurous women marry men who are also promsicous and sexually adventurous? Why dont they marry the type of men they really like to fcuk? And leave the losers and betas the heck alone?

    To this question there is only deafening silence from women.


  9. Tim Tim, I don’t know why any man would marry a woman who has had a parade of ballsacks on her face, given other options.


  10. Well Tim Tim, I ama woman and I don’t know why ANY man would marry a woman who has had a parade of ballsacks on her face, given other options.


  11. Oops….sorry for the duplicato.


  12. @signyourlifeonthex

    …which is why they are so adept at manipulating men.

    Feminists did not seek to manipulate men, they sought/seek to alter the social contract. That’s a very different thing. The destruction of that contract created a generation or two of women who feel completely free to express themselves in the SMP in any way they see fit, and no one has ever discussed the responsibilities/consequences of that behavior with them. More importantly, these women are operating at the peak of their SMV relative to the men in the same marketplace (it will always be this way). It was like giving the visitors to the zoo some high powered rifles and telling them to have fun.

    Many betas do hold noxious views on gender, race, class, etc which offend women’s desire for a happier, better world.

    Uh, what? Betas are world-builders. They do the work that keeps the world going without major complaint. The previous social contract guaranteed these men could behave as they behave (mostly non-competitively in the sexual marketplace) and be rewarded. That contract was ripped to shreds. It was the feminists who sought to destroy the social contract, not the betas. If anything, it was the ALPHAS who abused women under the previous social contract, not the betas.

    …where casual sex and n-count is viewed as something that permanently degrades women’s social status and mating market value (MMV).

    Beta’s seek to achieve a LTR/Family without serious competition in the SMP. In such a SMP, any woman with high N indicates that the non-competitive beta will in fact have to compete to keep that woman around. This is exactly what the beta seeks to avoid, so he will seek to avoid such women. Hence the marketability of such women is degraded by this behavior. The beta would say “Let the Alphas compete for those women.” Betas just want to find someone without serious alteration of their nature, get their x|{x>2} sessions of snu snu a week and settle down.

    This is part of the reason why women tend to fuck men of higher social status and higher n-count, because it “offsets” the status loss she will take as a result of sex, and a man with a higher n-count won’t see her n-count as intimidating.

    Uh, this makes no sense to me whatsoever.


  13. @ Timtim:

    “Why dont promiscuous and sexually adventurous women marry men who are also promsicous and sexually adventurous? Why dont they marry the type of men they really like to fcuk? And leave the losers and betas the heck alone?”

    Several reasons why:

    1. Promiscuous and sexually adventurous men tend to be men with sexual options. They are promiscuous because other women like sleeping with them. These men have no incentive to marry at all, much less marry sluts.

    2. Sluts are a bad marriage risk. No man knows this better than a promiscuous man who has fucked his share of sluts. So a promiscuous man with options is not going to marry a slut under any circumstances. And all this leads to…..

    3. Sluts cannot marry men with options. Men with options are available to sluts for sex; but not for marriage. Sluts have already given away their most attractive bargaining chips, and frankly have nothing left to offer.


  14. @ signyourlife:

    “…..women tend to fuck men of higher social status and higher n-count, because it “offsets” the status loss she will take as a result of sex, and a man with a higher n-count won’t see her n-count as intimidating.”

    That’s not the mental/hamster calculus that goes into the decisionmaking.

    Rather, women fuck men of higher status and N because they are attracted to those men. I don’t think she cares about her status loss when the clothes are flying and she gets a shot at a George Clooney wannabe.

    And the man doesn’t care about her N if she’s giving up the booty. It’s only when he’s called on to commit/invest that N becomes important to him. If he is a player/cad, he doesn’t care about her N because commitment/investment is out of the question.


  15. M3, genuine question from a woman trying to understand, during your incel period, were you pursuing a variety of women, including ugy/fat women, or just ones you considered to be “hot”?


  16. @deti

    This last one has always confused me a bit, probably because different MRAs say different things, and they don’t work well together.

    For example, I’ve read comments on the manosphere from men who are constantly upset that (relative to 80 years ago) fewer women are virgins upon marrying. Fair enough…if you’re a 25 yr old virgin man, I can see you wanting a virgin wife too. I get that.

    But then there are men who just are upset with hypergamy, and would quite gladly bang any and all the girls that Alphas are getting, if they had the chance to be asked out by those women. But if these Betas had their wish, then they’d be contributing to making that woman’s N even higher. If a 24 year old woman would normally have a N of 7 Alphas before she gets married, then her N would be 7 + X…where X could be 1, or it could be 5, or 12.

    So, my question is this;

    Is it really a woman’s N that is upsetting these guys? Or is the actual N less of an issue, and they are only upset by it because it is limited to Alphas/PUAs instead of Alphas/PUAs + Betas? In other words, if hypergamy didn’t exist and women had the same exact way of looking at sex as men do (as a gift to share with someone you care about/ a pleasurable way to relieve stress), would a high N woman be seen the same as a high N man?

    Also, who determines what a high N is? Obviously for a virgin, ANY N is higher…but if your N is 5, and your girlfriend’s is 4 is her N still high? If your N is 2 and your wife’s is 3, is her N high…or just highER than yours?

    My N is 1, and has been since I first shared sex with my lover at age 21. That was nearly 7 years ago…and yes, he is a total geeky Beta. :)


  17. @ aim33

    Good question. I think i will turn it into a post and link back here. Stay tuned.


  18. Speaking as a lifelong Beta nice guy, I don’t care how many men a woman has slept with, never have, so long as she is banging me. Anna you are correct in my case; I would gladly bang lots of women if the opportunity was there (it isn’t). I might even have considered entering a committed long term relationship with one, possibly to my detriment. Perhaps fate has spared me from divorce and child support payments?

    Promiscuous women think they can have their Alpha and marry him too. They’ve never been taught that the man they want to fuck and the man they should marry are not the same guy. Alpha men don’t commit because they have options. Wise Beta men don’t commit because, like Chris Rock said, he’s not her first choice.

    At any rate the type of women we are talking about don’t want commitment from Betas. Once they bag a few Alphas they will not lower their standards no matter how far past their prime they get. Women aren’t capable of giving up their dreams and accepting reality. They become junkies, fed by the mass media and by PUA’s who are happy to provide them with their fix.


  19. @M3

    I also had a quick question, just a curiosity really. When did you count the start of your 12 years of incel? I’ve heard anywhere from age 15 to age 23 as various “start times” from other men in the ‘sphere.

    Example: I only had sex when I knew I was mentally and emotionally ready for it at 21. So even though I have used porn and erotica since I was 13 to relieve the natural sexual tensions that start to appear then, I don’t count those 8 years as being incel. Not only would it have been illegal for a man to “help me out” for part of that time, but I wouldn’t have been fully ready for it anyway.

    I realize this is a personal question, to ask when you thought yourself mature enough for sex…so if you don’t want to answer that is 100% fine. If you’re good responding to it, I am very curious as to what you’d say!


  20. @RabbitHole

    Hey man, thanks for the response. I’m glad you’ve thusfar avoided the child support/divorce traps of our culture…unless you are a diehard celibate MGTOW, it seems like it’s harder and harder to do. No doubt it’s due to wise/conscious decision making on your part.

    I’ve always wondered exactly WHY women find the Alpha Asshole/Bad Boy attitude to their liking. I can’t stand it and I don’t find it attractive whatsoever…but it’s obvious that 98% of women *do* crave it. What is it about egotistical Alphas that females like, in your personal opinion?


  21. @ Anna

    You have raised very good questions.

    Let me start off by clarifying that DISRESPECT for promiscuous women (who’ve had their fun with the Alphas) and a PREFERENCE for not wanting those women for relationships, are 2 different things. I’ve even seen women saying they dont want to date/marry a ‘man whore’ and that doesnt become a political issue.

    I’ve only had 2 gf’s in my 28 yr life, with whom I shared some awkward sexual moments. I have personally no disrespect for women who have had sex with 100 men. But I would never consider one for a serious relationships or emotional investment. That is my preference and I cannot be shamed for it.

    .
    .

    Now to your main question.

    The number quality and variety of men availalbe to a woman for casual sex would be much much higher than the number and quality of men available to her for marriage.

    Before the average promiscuous woman settles down with the average guy, its very likely that she has had men in past who were much more attractive, better looking, taller, better built, more exciting, popular, confident, charming, succesful, better endowed etc, than the guy she settles down with.

    It is very likely that the average guy will never measure up to the men that a promiscuous women has had in the past. I would say these women are poisoned for the average man. And this has probably nothing to do with women. Its about men and their interests, well being and insecurities.

    Very often these women are jaded, bitter and disgruntled that the high quality superior men available to her for fucking have dissapeared once they uttered the words commitment and marriage. They rationalize their choice of settling down with a less exciting beta as ‘maturing’ when in reality its a ‘lack of options’

    It is really fucked up from an average guy’s perspective to realize that this woman he is going to marry wouldnt have crapped upon him when she was having her fun following her heart, choosing men out of desire rather than some other ‘noble reasons’

    The sex that these women give to their inexpereined beta husbands is a pittance compared to the wild, sponateous, passionate sex she gave to the men she was having flings with.

    .

    So in summary, I would have no qualms about marrying a woman who has had sex with 100 men before me if the men she has had in past were less attractive than me AND I’ve had sex with 100 women myself.

    Until then I would suggest women should marry the men they really like to fuck and leave the losers who cant get laid, the heck alone.


  22. I had a dinner party a few weeks back and the subject somehow came to past relationships. One of the women was mentioning several (in a non explicit way), then turned to her husband and said, “by the time I met you, I was done!” to which he responded, deadpan after a pregnant pause, “lucky me”.

    My husband did comment later that he is glad I don’t have such stories. I think this would be a difficult thing to look past.


  23. @Liz

    Holy crap.
    I’m sorry, maybe she’s normally a very nice woman…but that is a truly god-awful thing to say in front of your spouse. And at a party in front of other people? Unthinkable.

    If I may, is your husband your “one & only”? It sounds like it from some of your comments.


  24. @ Anna

    Why are women attracted to Alphas? It’s instinctive. In the absence of social, religious or economic incentive, women give in to their natural hypergamy. F. Roger Devlin explains it well:

    http://dontmarry.wordpress.com/2009/03/24/articles-by-f-roger-devlin/

    Women who have been taught that they are a princess who can have it all are doomed to hypergamy. Women who have been counseled by a wise mother or grandmother or priest learn to resist their natural urges. They use the sensible and rational part of their mind to make decisions about their love life.

    The rational & sensible women get married young to good Beta men and Alphas with morals. That leaves behind the wreckage of hypergamous Alpha-chasers, the Alpha cads who gladly get their share, and the hapless leftover Betas who were never told the truth about women.


  25. @Anna, he was my second. I got married very young during my second year of college.
    I dated the first for a year before even going to third base though. (but it turned out he was homosexual, go figure (lol!)…so as you can imagine my husband was basically my first).

    fwiw, I’ve seen much worse cases than that woman I mentioned! The worst that comes to mind was at a commander’s home during a holiday celebration. That wife started talking about teabagging, and when another asked what that was she exclaimed, “didn’t you ever date?! Oh guys used to love to teabag in college. Except him (points to her husband) because he went to the Academy.” Awesome, eh?


  26. @Tim

    From reading your comment, it has hit me (like the proverbial Mack truck) that I’ve been looking at this all wrong. I have always thought that people choose their spouses in *spite* of previous experiences…as in:

    “Yes, my previous boyfriends were taller/more endowed/more muscular/more exciting, but you have a maturity and personality that completes me like they never did. You are my other half, and I care for you like no one else in my life. I want to spend my waking hours with you instead of them because you are The One.”

    I’m not a romantic person (at least by overly sweet Hallmark standards), but I thought this is the emotion that other women feel when they settle down. But instead you are saying that they are really just settling for a “lesser” man, who they’ll continue to compare unfavorably to past lovers. If I was a man, I’d be horribly offended by that too.

    What Liz says only confirms it…some women use previous men to put down their current one. But why should they? If a previous boyfriend was more endowed, then instead of pointing that out she could comment about how your techniques are better. If a past love was taller, point out how much easier you are to kiss. Turn the difference from a jibe into a compliment, right?

    I mean, my lover has told me that I’m low on his list of kissers…I’m just not very good at it. But then he says that I’m the absolute best at oral sex he’s ever had (out of 18 women!) So even though I feel bad that I’m not good at kissing, I’m overjoyed that I can make up for it in other ways.

    My lack of experience with relationships is getting progressively more evident as I delve farther into the manosphere. I’m not sure that I like it, honestly.


  27. @Liz

    Dear Gods above.
    Is that *really* what they talk about at those type of parties? I’ve never been to one that didn’t involve gaming…
    Seems like I’m not missing very much.


  28. @RabbitHole

    I’ll have to read that link when I have more time since I must get ready for work now. I guess I just can’t wrap my head around how being an insensitive, egotistical, brash, rude, douchebag Alpha could be seen as an evolutionary advantage to the opposite sex.

    I can understand being attracted to confidence, a strong work ethic, kindness towards others, a willingness to laugh, and a stable temperament. But I very rarely see this with Alphas, who usually have the former personality traits. Gah, so confusing!

    I’m off to work now, where things are dorky and make some sense. :P


  29. It is really fucked up from an average guy’s perspective to realize that this woman he is going to marry wouldnt have crapped upon him when she was having her fun following her heart, choosing men out of desire rather than some other ‘noble reasons’

    The sex that these women give to their inexpereined beta husbands is a pittance compared to the wild, sponateous, passionate sex she gave to the men she was having flings with.

    THIS ^^^ LADIES ^^^ THIS.
    Thank you Tim.


  30. I shouldn’t have pushed submit. The long-and-short of it is, if your N-count is high, then in any serious relationship the man will feel like a consolation prize. There IS NO WAY TO COUNTER THIS, he will likely have that feeling in the back of his mind as long as the LTR with that woman lasts.


  31. @Anna,
    They aren’t all like that! But…in vino veritas, and all that.

    I don’t think a woman has to be a virgin. At a certain point she probably shouldn’t be…that might even be indicative of a deep seeded psych problem if she’s well into her 20s. There’s a middle ground, but every past relationship is likely to be a thorn in a marriage, at least to some extent. OTOH, I can’t imagine marrying a person I wasn’t really really sexually attracted to either. There has to be that special something, and sex is very bonding.


  32. @ Anna

    i dont know Anna. I would assume a woman would’ve wanted the tall height, bigger endowment along with the maturity and personality. Its only when the men with the former qualities are emotionally unavailble that women compromise and settle down with lesser men, giving weight to their noble and redeeming qualities.

    Its not that I dont want to be chosen for the redeeming qualities, its just the question why cant I be wanted for lust/desire alone?

    I’m not saying that women who marry men, less attractive than theiir past lovers/fuckers, dont love them. But its like they have to make an effort to love them and ‘learn’ to enjoy sex with them. Its like they need to grow into them. Its like the attraction, the lust is not natural and effortless like it was with the men she had flings with. Its like she just ENDED UP with him due to circumstances.

    More often than not, when settling for less attractive men in long term relationships, women think about what he can do for me – how would he make ME feel, would he make me laugh, is he a good listener, is he supportive, caring, is he a good provider, will he be a good father, is he less likely to stray, etc. These questions werent present in her mind when she was having flings with the objectively more attractive and exciting men in the past. Those men were just desirable to her without any pre-conditions. True love, desire, lust has no pre-conditions.

    And when you say

    “If a previous boyfriend was more endowed, then instead of pointing that out she could comment about how your techniques are better. If a past love was taller, point out how much easier you are to kiss. Turn the difference from a jibe into a compliment, right?”

    it just sounds patronizing.

    .
    .

    Women rarely find themselves in this position so I understanc its difficult for them to empathize with the male persepctive.
    For instance its more than likely that you compare favorably or are atleast at par with all the women your lover has had in past, in terms of looks. In any case, you know you could have had sex with 18 men better looking than your lover if you WANTED TO because the dynamics of the sexual marketplace allow you to do so.


  33. @ Tim:

    “Until then I would suggest women should marry the men they really like to fuck and leave the losers who cant get laid, the heck alone.”

    LIke I said above, it would be great if it worked out this way. But it usually doesn’t. The only way a woman can marry a man she likes fucking is to marry the first or second or third guy she likes well enough to fuck, and then stay with him for the rest of her life. ‘

    Most don’t do that.


  34. @ Anna,
    Regarding your question regarding why women love assholes…
    I think we may have had a similar discussion before on another post. I don’t think women are attracted to assholes so much as they are attracted to the dominant qualities that they display. Alpha assholes are men with options and thus tend to be confident, more self-centered, aggressive and, most importantly, they don’t put women on a pedestal or put up with their shit. Most women are sexually attracted to dominance in men – basically to traits that are associated with traditonal masculinity. But since they don’t understand their own biological drives they are fooled by them and thus end up chasing assholes to get their “tingles”. The truth is that men don’t have to be jerks to attract women the way that assholes do they just have to be confident, strong (in body and mind), exhibit leadership qualities, not supplicate to women, and certainly not put up with any shit. I know that you are not personally sexually attracted to dominant men, Anna. But you are the exception, not the rule : ). Most of us women are wired to want that, including me. But now that I’m aware of my own nature, I don’t fall prey to assholes. I still enjoy dominance in a partner, but I weed out the jerks and since I don’t have sex unless I’m in a committed relationship, they tend to weed me out too ; ) I find that dating so-called beta guys is a lot more fun and rewarding…and I also find that acting more feminine and submissive (like letting them take the lead) brings out their dominant qualities. All of this is just my opinion based on my own experience and what I have observed and I’m sure that there are some that would disagree with what I have said. Still, I just wanted to give my personal opinion on your question as to why women love assholes.

    ~gwen


  35. @Tim

    I’m unsure how my statement was patronizing, so I am sorry for that. It was essentially a paraphrase of something my lover said about his previous partners…how sometimes they’d be lying in bed and she’d compare him to previous guys she’d been with. Though it was usually favorable, he says he wishes they had phrased it differently or gave a compliment along with the comparison to “soften” any blows. Again, I’m unsure how this is patronizing, especially since the idea came from one of your fellow men…?

    It’s an interesting idea to me, that you’d LIKE to be desired for looks alone. I certainly am flattered when guys ask me out, since that means (I presume) that they find me physically attractive. But I’d be a little offended if someone wanted to have a relationship based on looks rather than personality, even if it’s an extremely casual one.

    Then again, I’ve never had a “fling”, nor have I ever desired one. I’ve not ever been to a club or bar, never been drunk, never wanted sex with someone other than my lover…Again, I’m afraid that my lack of experience with the modern dating/casual sex scene shows that I have little to add to such conversations. The more I learn, the less I’m able to draw comparisons to my own life.

    Whether this makes me lucky in love or naive in experience is yet to be seen. It’s probably a bit of both, in my opinion.


  36. @gwen

    Hey there, it’s been a while! Thanks for your response too, I like to hear perspectives of more feminine women such as you and Liz.

    You’re right, I’m not attracted to dominant men (for various reasons), but I do like the qualities my lover possesses, most of which you just mentioned. He likes that I’m a good listener, than I’m witty, that I laugh at his jokes, that I have a pretty smile, and that I’m “always ready to go”. Somehow I think that last one counts for a lot… ;)

    So let me put this out there;
    Do you feel that some women get attracted to assholes due to the fact that it’s hard to find good masculine representations in our media/culture, and so they go after men who show hypermasculine traits? Coupled with the fact that many people are raised without a father figure, I can see confusion setting in as to what a “real man” is like…


  37. They are attracted to assholes because they have issues with their own femininity. Often they are brats themselves and need a stronger hand to put them in place, someone who doesnt submit to their emotional games.

    Add that assholes display more dominance and independence, and are probably happier (self satisfied) overall, and display more raw masculinity.

    Then add narcissim and codependence.


  38. Anna:

    “So, my question is this;

    Is it really a woman’s N that is upsetting these guys? Or is the actual N less of an issue, and they are only upset by it because it is limited to Alphas/PUAs instead of Alphas/PUAs + Betas? In other words, if hypergamy didn’t exist and women had the same exact way of looking at sex as men do (as a gift to share with someone you care about/ a pleasurable way to relieve stress), would a high N woman be seen the same as a high N man?

    Also, who determines what a high N is? Obviously for a virgin, ANY N is higher…but if your N is 5, and your girlfriend’s is 4 is her N still high? If your N is 2 and your wife’s is 3, is her N high…or just highER than yours?”

    Ask 10 different guys, get different answers.

    Yes, the N upsets a guy. The N is an issue; but how she got the N is an issue too. If her N is 6 and they are all one night stands, that’s a huge red flag. If her N is 6 and 1 is a fling, 1 is an ONS and the remaining 4 were relationships, that’s less of an issue. An N in double digits regardless of its origins is problematic and a huge red flag.

    Here’s the issue: The higher her N, the greater the chance that she’s had a man much, much better and more alpha than you. The higher her N, the greater the chance that she is an alpha widow. The higher the N, the lesser the chance she will bond with you.

    Anna: You asked “Also, who determines what a high N is?” Answer: The man who is being asked to commit and invest gets to decide if he is comfortable with her N. Thus, the man doing the investing and committing determines what a high N is.


  39. @Anna:”Do you feel that some women get attracted to assholes due to the fact that it’s hard to find good masculine representations in our media/culture, and so they go after men who show hypermasculine traits?”

    I differ from others in that I do not associate being an asshole with alpha behavior. Not at all. I’ve known far more assholes who are pusillanimous types than confident types.

    Assholes are assholes and that’s all. Often (I’d say almost always, the same could be said for narcissists of both sexes, and of course the basic cunt) their attitude and behavior covers some deeply seeded insecurities. My guy is the most masculine person I’ve ever met, and NOT an asshole. But he also isn’t a supplicant or sycophant. And I’d rather he be an asshole than either of those things (supplication is the kiss of death, and I’ve seen many an asshole act like an asshole to everyone else and then become the supplicant to a pretty face, this type is not a genetic winner), but if he were an asshole I wouldn’t have dated him in the first place.


  40. @ Anna,

    “Do you feel that some women get attracted to assholes due to the fact that it’s hard to find good masculine representations in our media/culture, and so they go after men who show hypermasculine traits? Coupled with the fact that many people are raised without a father figure, I can see confusion setting in as to what a “real man” is like…”

    I do agree that there is a dearth of men exhibiting traditionally masculine qualities in our culture and media (the presentation of men as sniveling, weak, and/or incompetent on TV, in particular, makes my blood boil). I want to say, though, that I don’t think that this is the fault of men at all. I think feminism and a culture infected with its poison has browbeat the natural dominance out of men for the most part (as M3 has pointed out to me in the past). I think women, for the most part, are thirsting for raw masculinity and most of them want to be with a man that they look up to in some way, someone they see as a leader.. I also think that prior to the onslaught of feminism, women looked up to ALL men, in general, because they held a higher social position than them by default just by being a man. They were automatically dominant and were expected to lead, in dating, in the home and in the world at large. It is more difficult for men to achieve this “leader” status now as women are their equals and peers in all settings. I’m not so sure it’s necessarily the hyper-masculinity of assholes that is attractive, but just the fact that they exhibit dominance at all and are willing to stand up to women and put them in their place, so to speak. Since most women lack insight into why they feel attraction to such men, they don’t question it and just follow the “tingles”. Women who are aware of their instincts, I would think, are more cautious to fall into the trap. I do agree that women who have no reference point for what healthy masculinity actually is are more likely to be susceptible to an asshole alpha. But it appears that women who grow up without a healthy male influence (whether it be a father, grandfather, uncle, etc.) are much more likely to be more promiscuous and use their sexuality as the sole means of attracting male attention.

    @Yohami

    That is an interesting thought and you are probably right. As I mentioned above, women are now the equals and peers of men in all spheres of life. In addition, the scourge of feminism has taught them that they are “special” and superior to men. Women who have swallowed this message whole would, indeed, need an incredibly strong, dominant man to initially attract them, keep them attracted and kick them off their self-erected pedestals.


  41. @Liz

    I don’t think a woman has to be a virgin.

    No, she doesn’t have to be. If I had to put a rule of thumb on it, I would say this:

    If she can honestly say she was in an LTR with every man she’s had and it didn’t work out for one reason or another, then the intimacy number doesn’t matter. However, the greater the number of LTRs a woman has had that didn’t work out the more the question: “Why are you going through so many boyfriends?” becomes relevant.


  42. Hi there,

    First of all, I’m sorry for your plight. I have never been in a situation like yours but I don’t think your rage toward women is entirely fair. What were the women who were not interested/sexually attracted towards you to do: forego their feelings and fuck you out of pity? Feign interest because for whatever reason you could not get a relationship? Give you sex because you’re a man and have needs?Were all the women you met suppose to be magically aware of your lack of sex and invite you to their beds to fix the problem? I’m really sorry if women treated you bad but that doesn’t mean other have to make up for that and give you sex or affection. To suggest that women can’t be incel is ridiculous. Women too, can be socially awkward, have body hang up’s that make them feel so embarresed they can’t/won’t let a man near. They too can end up in a friendzone if the guy just likes her but isn’t sexually interested in her. If a woman is not deemed attractive the general consesus is that she should be grateful for any man that wants to fuck her and should she have the gall to decline then she’s a “stuck up bitch who needs to take a good look in the mirror.” Attraction doesn’t seem to be important anymore in her case. Kindness does not equate sex, you can blame feminism, your mother or any other female you want but anyone with two braincells could have figured that one out.


  43. Long time reader, first time responder. Thank you for posting this. I relate a lot more to your blog and your experiences, than the manosphere folks who had relatively normal sex/romantic lives throughout young adulthood. So many more young men out there need to read this and see that there is hope. The manosphere will go mainstream through guys like you, Rollo, Mark Manson, PrivateMan, and Athol Kay. Thanks again for sharing.


  44. “It is really fucked up from an average guy’s perspective to realize that this woman he is going to marry wouldnt have crapped upon him when she was having her fun following her heart, choosing men out of desire rather than some other ‘noble reasons’

    The sex that these women give to their inexpereined beta husbands is a pittance compared to the wild, sponateous, passionate sex she gave to the men she was having flings with.”

    It is really disturbing to me that you characterise sex as something a woman “gives” to a man. Sex is something people do together. If you replace “give” with “have” in your quote, then it makes it quite clear that BOTH PARTNERS are responsible for the quality of sex. But you wouldn’t want to do this because then you couldn’t blame the woman for everything.


  45. theduchtreasoning:

    Your comment is typical of what many women say about the SMP, and about their perspectives of men’s sexual conduct.

    First, you’re absolutely right that no man is entitled to sex from any woman. No woman is obligated to have sex with a man unless she’s married to him. That being said, it really is objectively much easier for an average woman to get sex than it is for a man to get sex. The main problem men have is cultivating traits that generate attraction (vis a vis compatibility), and displaying attractive traits.

    Second, women do have their sex and relationship problems too. But the problems are less related to attraction than to strategy. A lot of women can get sex from men who are way above the women’s SMVs. The only way these average women can get that attention from these very attractive men is to put out. This severely discalibrates her attraction vectors, and prevents her from seeing anything attractive about the men who might actually be interested in her. A related problem is that many women do not want men in their own SMVs, in large part due to hypergamy.

    A third strategy problem is women’s delaying marriage, instead opting for ONSs, flings, STRs and LTRs, hoping to find The One. This is a poor strategy in large part because the woman usually ages and prices herself out of the market. If she makes it to her late 20s with no husband, and still wants one, she has to start looking downward in SMV. IOW, she has to “settle” for a man who is still willing to marry her; when she frankly could have done better had she married a man whose SMV was rising and when she was in her early 20s.


  46. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but isn’t the case of “the guy chasing woman who are out of his league”? In other words, there are plenty of “homely” women who aren’t playing any game and won’t attract the “bad boys” yet aren’t particularly desired by guys either. If guys complain that beautiful women are only interested in having sex with Alpha males (why is that actually surprising?) then what about the rest of womanhood then?


  47. Tim: “The sex that these women give to their inexpereined beta husbands is a pittance compared to the wild, sponateous, passionate sex she gave to the men she was having flings with.”

    aim33: “It is really disturbing to me that you characterise sex as something a woman “gives” to a man. Sex is something people do together. If you replace “give” with “have” in your quote, then it makes it quite clear that BOTH PARTNERS are responsible for the quality of sex. But you wouldn’t want to do this because then you couldn’t blame the woman for everything.”

    This is ridiculous, aim. Sexual access is the highest form of acceptance a woman gives a man. It is what all men are vying for when engaging a woman, all women, really. A woman does not really give herself to a man until she has sex with him. So sex really is something that a woman gives a man. When she has sex with him, he knows that she has accepted him.


  48. @aim33

    You entirely missed the point of Tim’s comment. You are trying to reframe his comment into an egalitarian viewpoint without considering what he was trying to say at all.

    Ask yourself how you would feel if you had a circle of people of the opposite sex that you knew. You watched these people all through their late teens 20s and early thirties. You watched these people (some of them friends) go out and party and take whoever they wanted back home, even the cream of the crop, with them to have intimate relations, regularly. You yourself simply did not have the skill or attraction that these “friends” of yours of the opposite sex had, so you yourself got almost no intimate relations for all that time. You found this (naturally) quite frustrating.

    Now imagine one of those “friends” decides they want to settle down, and low and behold, they start paying attention to you to try to make this happen.

    Do you REALLY think you wouldn’t have tremendous thoughts of jealousy? Do you REALLY think you wouldn’t find that situation entirely f-ed up when you realize that these “friends” knew you all along, knew what you were like, knew what you looked like, but paid you no attention during your best sexual years? Do you REALLY think you’d start pulling out egalitarian viewpoints and justifying feeling good about the situation because now this person is sharing themselves with you? If you said yes, you’re the most masochistic person I know.


  49. @Jeremy

    You really brought it home just now. People like you describe are like the sexual version of a “fair weather friend”, only much worse.

    Don’t have time for them, either.


  50. @theduchtreasoning

    …I don’t think your rage toward women is entirely fair.

    I don’t mean to speak for M3, but any rage he has is not directed at women proper/general and is instead directed at:
    1) Women presuming they have any concept of what men go through when they go without intimacy for long periods of time.
    2) Women telling the men they care about and use for emotional support to be “A” if they want girls to like them while they give intimate relations for free to “B” all while A =/= B.

    He wasn’t expecting pity relations, he wasn’t expecting to get something for free. He was expecting the world to make sense and be able to take the opposite sex at its word just as feminist theory espouses. This approach proved to simply reinforce his “jail” cell of involuntary celibacy. Rather than helping him work towards what he wanted, it was pushing him further away and the people who supposedly cared about him were part of the system doing this to him.

    To suggest that women can’t be incel is ridiculous. Women too, can be socially awkward, have body hang up’s that make them feel so embarresed they can’t/won’t let a man near. They too can end up in a friendzone if the guy just likes her but isn’t sexually interested in her.

    This is all true, but entirely misses the point. Women are not biologically built to be ready for intimacy 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, for their entire lives. Women do not have the sexual drive that men do, they just don’t. So what you are really trying to suggest is that being incel as a woman is the same as being incel as a man. This is false. Men constantly seek the sexual approval of women by seeking intimacy from them, we are designed to do so. If this were not so the narrowly-gapped fertile periods of women would be missed. This means lower pregnancy rates in general and the human race would be nowhere near as fertile as it is. You are simply incorrect to imply that being celibate as a woman is the same as being celibate as a man.

    [M3: Jeremy nailed it on both counts. I would add that women rarely ever have to deal with the *in* part of in-cel. Most female celibacy is not involuntary but a choice, ignoring men of equal SMV looking for higher value. Or being super shy and never throwing out IOI's and not responding to men's advances. Take any celibate woman, pair her up with a man of equal SMV and say 'go have sex'.. you'll watch the mans eyes light up while hers go dead.

    It is the involuntary part, the inability to attain sex freely/willingly/voluntarily from a person of the opposite sex (without turning it into a meaningless cash transaction) is what the struggle of *incel* is all about.]


  51. @ Gil::

    “I hate to be the bearer of bad news but isn’t the case of “the guy chasing woman who are out of his league”? In other words, there are plenty of “homely” women who aren’t playing any game and won’t attract the “bad boys” yet aren’t particularly desired by guys either.”

    Apples and oranges. Men figure out pretty darn quick which women are in his league and which women are not. The 7th grade chess team captain has no chance — NONE AT ALL — with the cheerleader. The trumpet player in the marching band is never, ever going to fuck the hot girl on the pom pom squad. A male 5 is never, ever even going to get to talk to a female 9, much less fuck her. We men learn this as soon as we start growing pubic hair.

    By contrast, a “homely” girl who isn’t getting male attention can change that very quickly by putting out. Will she pay a price? Yes. Do a lot of girls decide that price is worth it? Yes.

    “If guys complain that beautiful women are only interested in having sex with Alpha males (why is that actually surprising?) then what about the rest of womanhood then?”

    We’re not making that complaint about beautiful women. That’s a trait endemic to ALL women. ALL women want only alpha males. As for the rest of womanhood, what about them? They can improve their attractiveness very, very easily. A 4, if she runs some feminine girl game, dolls up, gets good makeup and a hairdo, and keeps her weight down, can do just fine. A 5 or 6 man will be very, very happy with her. But she doesn’t want that. She wants George Clooney.


  52. For point of reference:

    Nate of NextLevelUp tells a story of an alpha chaser he hooked up with who knew she was punching above her weight. Money quote, from the girl:

    “I know that I’ll probably never see you again. But I don’t care. And you don’t have to. You… I, just, ugh. … When you first kissed me tonight I couldn’t believe it. It was all I could think about after.”

    Somewhere, her male SMP peer probably hasn’t been laid in months, and wonders what it will take for him to find a girl who will give him the time of day.

    http://nexxtlevelup.com/everything-else/i-know-ill-probably-never-see-you-again


  53. You know, I have to change my mind about “homely” girls. They don’t have to put out to get attention. they only have to put out for PUAs and cads and players, because those men are never going to invest and commit anyway. Sex is the only way a so-called homely girl can attract and hold a PUAs’ attention.

    But not so for Christian men, nonPUAS, nonplayers, and… well, all other men really. Those men in the 4-7 SMV range will be thrilled with an average girl who hasn’t put out for every guy in her vicinity. And she will not have to put out immediately. He will escalate his investment as it is rewarded and reciprocated with physical interest and female pleasantness.

    But in the current SMP, those 4-7 men just aren’t attractive to women who are their SMP peers. And so it looks like a lot of the homely girls make a calculated decision that putting out for the alpha dickbag on the longshot chance that he’ll commit to her (maybe, someday, probably not) is preferable to an average Joe Schlub who WILL commit to her.


  54. @ aim 33

    It is really disturbing to me that you characterise sex as something a woman “gives” to a man. Sex is something people do together. If you replace “give” with “have” in your quote, then it makes it quite clear that BOTH PARTNERS are responsible for the quality of sex. But you wouldn’t want to do this because then you couldn’t blame the woman for everything.

    Its just a matter of semantics you seem concerned about and using it to derail the debate. Feel free to replace gives with have Yes, women have more desire, passion, lust for the men they have flings with than the beta men they marry but wouldnt have considered for a fling.

    Yes, both partners are responsible for the quality of sex. Thats why I said, that women should marry the men they really like to bang..the good looking, confident alpha males with lots of sexual prowess. So the quality of sex can be good.


  55. @ Deti

    In the current SMP, 4-7 for a guy might as well be 1-3. First they need 7-10 looks just to be acceptable (now females fight for ‘arm candy’) and then they need to 7-10 in job/career/goals/aspirations/wealth.. then they need to be 7-10 in social attributes, always-on, instant funny, instant serious, instant awesome, alpha dominant. Lastly they need to be 7-10 on being vulnerable and emotionally available and nurturing and supportive.. but only to her primarily, when she needs it. Did i miss anything?


  56. @M3

    I have come to the conclusion that the SMP is viewed quite differently but the social caste that I’m a part of, namely: Gamers, Nerds, and Geeks.

    I know people who are so socially inept it can make you cry…but they have girlfriends who wait on them hand and foot.

    Dudes who have never set foot in a bar, but easily pick up chicks at a LARP or convention.

    Menfolk who are so gangly and awkward that a strong beeze could knock them on their ass…happily married with 2+ kids.

    Guys who will probably work at Walmart, Target, or Best Buy all their life…who get laid by relatively attractive women every week.

    And these are not just customers I know, some of these examples are friends and good acquaintances. These men are typical geeks, nerds, dweebs. All but a few are certainly Betas. And yes, there are still the 16-25 year olds who have problems getting dates. But gamers who are over 25? Hell, so many of us are either in loving relationships/marriages (90% of my friends) or are happily single (myself, and about 20+% of my customer base), that I think some commenters here should invest in pocket protectors and dice!

    Seriously though, it’s just an observation I recently had. After all, “The geek shall inherit the earth”, right? Maybe being an aawkward 4 guy with an equally awkward 4 girlfriend who likes to dress up in corsets and play D&D isn’t the worst type of relationship…I’ve seen enough of them that work!


  57. @ Anna

    Interesting observation. I think it demonstrates the tendency of people to seek out archetypes when looking for the opposite sex. In this case the geek/nerd/gamer/D&D archetype. I see it all the time in women’s online dating profiles, they are looking for someone that fits the archetype of what they perceive is right for them. If you are an individual with diverse interests, like yours truly, they seem to not know how to deal with it. I am an enigma: I like video games, sci-fi, history, war, but I am also a musician in a rock band. I am bald, fair-skinned, wear glasses and have no tattoos, but I am also tall and fit with broad shoulders and a flat tummy. I don’t fit the rocker archetype nor do I fit the geek archetype. I play golf and like to ride bicycles but I’m not a competitive pro golfer/lifter/mountain biker. So women attracted to any of these specific groups pass me over because I don’t fit. That’s my theory anyway.

    This is why people, men in particular, feel they must fake it and present themselves to the world as a certain archetype so they can attract members of the opposite sex that they want. You see this happening right from puberty. I have never fallen for that, I have always been true to myself and never presented a made-up guise to people. I want to be accepted for who I am.


  58. Rabbithole

    “present themselves to the world as a certain archetype so they can attract members of the opposite sex that they want.”

    Yes. Members of the opposite member, and any other member of that tribe.

    “I want to be accepted for who I am.”

    Yeah, but there’s no such thing. No one is accepted for who they are. You’re accepted because of the value you bring, and rejected because of the annoyance you bring. The translation is that you want someone to see all that you are as value. That desire comes from infancy, back when you needed the love of your parents. Carrying it to adulthood is going to give you issues.

    Relationships are transactions. Which doesnt have to be cold hearted and can be as honest and to the bone as you want them to be, but they are, anyway, transactions, The moment the person you’re with withdraws the value and replaces it with annoyance, the moment the relationship changes.

    When you dont fit any archetype fully, that means you’re not “born yet”. None of your interests is truly you, you didnt commit to any specific one fully, you didnt sacrifice enough, you didnt invest or reap the profits enough on any of those. You’re not there yet. This doesnt mean that to be fully invested you need to “fake” all the superficial tratis (like looks, mannerisms, posture, appeareance), but it means that when you fully commit those superficial traits will transpire. You dont get to be a top tennis player without sacrificing piano lessons, you dont get to be a CEO of a top company without gaining on cynism and becoming workaholic, you dont get success on X without sacrificing Y, and in that imbalance, you fit the archetype of the tribe, and become a role model for that tribe, and thus, the man that the women in that tribe want to mate with.

    Then there are core archetypes, alpha beta etc. Even if you dont fit any specific social archetype you can get away with a lot by acquiring alpha. If would require you to be on the move.

    Im in a similar position than yours btw, in the middle of two or three different archetypes, and with alpha as the only thing that glues them together but in a weird way. For me to feel that I am “really me” I have to sacrifice a few roles. Right now Im coding videogames for work, writing, and Im trying to become a musician, and partying. The transitions from one to the other create this fracture, and there’s a lot of water (energy) that leaves me on the transition, and at the same time the people I connect with each separate tribe only get to know 30% of me or so, and reversely, at tops they only attract me 30%. For this to really work, I need to transition into a more stable archetype, where I can invest and have a margin of 100 % for everything I do.

    I think the same applies for you. Not as a “must” though. Do as you will :-)


  59. @RabbitHole

    “I want to be accepted for who I am.”

    Amen to that. Personally, I *like* being honest about who I am, and I expect the same from others. Labels can be helpful at times, like when you casually want to tell someone you like a certain type of music, or if a particular hobby interests you. But when people try to take an entire stereotype and put you in it? Yeah, that’s a no-go.

    I know people that are Goth but bubbly and social, Nerds that play football, Geeks that can bench press 250lbs, fat guys that have a 4th degree black belt, and of course, the women like myself who love and cherish these guys for who they are, not who they could pretend to be. And in return, we don’t have to conform to overly stereotypical archetypes either…and guys love us for it.

    Besides, who wouldn’t want a woman who cooks you a meal from a Game of Thrones cookbook, and serves it dressed in nothing but a Slave Girl Leia outfit? Yeah, it’s mixing fantasy and scifi…but what male *cares*? Role playing is fun at conventions, but even more fun in the bedroom. ;)


  60. this

    “This is why people, men in particular, feel they must fake it and present themselves to the world as a certain archetype so they can attract members of the opposite sex that they want.”

    Actually the tribe is as important to girls as it is for men. Belonging to a tribe is what every girl strives for, and they understand this game and start playing it way before boys. Clothing, gossip, etc. The tribe is glued by the girls. A tribe of boys competing against each other with no girls cheering for the winner and pitying on the losers is not really a tribe. Notice how girls aim for uniformity and to blend with each other. They are the canvas. The men overcoming each other and their variances are the fireworks and explosions and creativity on that canvas. Without the girls, the canvas, there’s no frame of reference for the men to do amazing stuff.


  61. @Yohami

    And if you’re a perpetual tomboy? If you never “woman up” and start gossiping, wearing heels, unnecessary makeup, shunning your male friends/having only female friends, etc.?

    What tribe do you belong to, when you are the wrong personality for one…and the wrong sex for the other?

    Up is down, left is right.
    “Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!”


  62. Anna, if you’re a tomboy…. then you dont belong to the girls tribe and the girls dont like you, of course. They see you as a foraneous danger. Being a foraneous danger may work when you’re a man but its very hard as a woman, without a tribe having your back. I guess you can have one or two female friends but, you know.

    You could form a tribe of tomboy girls but I get the feeling it would become a ducth lesbian club quickly.


  63. @Yohami

    You are right, a vast majority of tomboys ARE lesbians. (Un)fortunately, I love cock, so that really doesn’t work.
    I’ve reached the decision to just be me, which is apparently a guy who happens to have a clit and breasts instead of a penis. It doesn’t bother me at all…I just wanted to see what your opinion was, since you always make honest comments that make me think.


  64. I would argue that Tomboy is an archetype which people can readily identify with. But then it is not fair to label and pigeon-hole people in that way. In a free society with so many opportunities for work and play everyone should be free to pursue what they want when they want and be accepted.

    Yohami – my interests ARE truly me. I would not pursue them otherwise. I don’t do them to attract women, I do them because I get enjoyment out of them or because they are good for my well-being. I am a free man, I will not join any tribe. I am not motivated by pussy. I want pussy but I was never raised to do whatever it took to get pussy. So here I am, middle-aged and still single.

    Your point about getting to the top of a pursuit by sacrificing other things is valid. It brings us back to Hypergamy, women wanting only men who are at the top of their chosen game.


  65. M3:

    “In the current SMP, 4-7 for a guy might as well be 1-3. First they need 7-10 looks just to be acceptable (now females fight for ‘arm candy’) and then they need to 7-10 in job/career/goals/aspirations/wealth.. then they need to be 7-10 in social attributes, always-on, instant funny, instant serious, instant awesome, alpha dominant. Lastly they need to be 7-10 on being vulnerable and emotionally available and nurturing and supportive.. but only to her primarily, when she needs it. Did i miss anything?”

    Sometimes you wonder if it could get any worse. I’ve been dropping rants all over the MAndrosphere. I know some decent guys, young, fit, with good jobs making good money. They can’t get dates AT ALL. They can’t get anything at all.

    I was in church last Sunday. I was making a special effort to look around at the men. Most of them are under 50, most married. I don’t know any other way to say this, but – most of these men are emasculated pussies. They are. They have shitty haircuts. They’re flabby and out of shape; or they’re skinny, sunken-chested girlie boys. They have no sense of style and dress for shit. (Seriously, do church guys in the Midwestern U.S. not own any pants other than khaki slacks?) They have limp wristed, effeminate handshakes. They’d rather hug you (no thanks). They don’t look like they’ve ever done any physical work in their entire lives. They are boring, have no personalities and have never done anything interesting. They can’t take a position or articulate a coherent thought about anything. They work good jobs, but they are functionaries.

    And even if any of these men could get dates, would they really want to, or at least want to be there for the long haul? The women around me (not necessarily in church) are only marginally better. First of all, many of them are fat. I don’t mean just overweight. I mean FAT. I mean 40 lbs and up overweight. Second, most of them are insufferable. They are stupid, rude, caustic, abrasive, vulgar, unpleasant, grating, aggressive, in-your-face, and profligate profanity-users. Third, most of them come with, uh, let’s just say, colorful sexual histories. If you get to fuck her, it’s very likely a better man than you (at least to her) has fucked her. Some of these women appear to have more baggage than a department store. And it will be all yours to unpack and sort through.

    So take your pick. You get a girl, she’s either (1) a disease ridden slut; (2) batshit crazy; (3) an entitlement princess; (4) a special snowflake; or (5) a tattoo-ruined emo weirdo; or (6) a single mom. At best, you’ll get a girl with neuroses that will come out eventually.

    It really is that bad.


  66. @RabbitHole

    You sound pretty awesome. The majority of my friends (who, as Yohami pointed out, are not girls) are very comfortable with themselves as you seem to be. I greatly prefer dealing with “real” people…

    @deti

    What is the difference between an “entitlement princess” and a “special snowflake”? I always thought they were basically the same.


  67. entitlement princess: She demands more and more of her man’s time. She insists on expensive nights out, meals, drinks and entertainment.

    special snowflake: She’s unique. There’s no one like her. Sure, no other girl could tame that alpha. But hey, that alpha’s never met HER. She will rock his world and make him her own. ‘Cause she’s just that special. Sure, she’s slept with a few (ahem) a bunch of guys, like her friends. But unlike those other sluts, she does it with style and with hotter guys. And she sleeps with her guys at least two or three times, whereas those other girls only did one nighters. So she’s not like those sluts out there that sleep around.


  68. “The women around me (not necessarily in church) are only marginally better. First of all, many of them are fat. I don’t mean just overweight. I mean FAT. I mean 40 lbs and up overweight. Second, most of them are insufferable. They are stupid, rude, caustic, abrasive, vulgar, unpleasant, grating, aggressive, in-your-face, and profligate profanity-users. Third, most of them come with, uh, let’s just say, colorful sexual histories. If you get to fuck her, it’s very likely a better man than you (at least to her) has fucked her. Some of these women appear to have more baggage than a department store. And it will be all yours to unpack and sort through.”

    Ive been debating this topic for years now and it really lights up a firecracker up many a woman’s ass, when they’re told they can be totally mediocre in every aspect and still get laid left and right.

    Im sure you missed out on a lot of other faults and inadequacies in your list, and perhaps added missing an arm/leg, deaf, dumb, illiterate, broke, insecure and still having a steady stream of fit men to have sex with.

    This definitely sounds like a rant but I’m really pissed off right now. When a guy sho cant get laid, bemoans his sexual frustration, the very first thing he is told is to hit the gym, get new clothes, have a sense of fashion, groom yourself, get something going in life, be outgoing, be confident, be risk taking, learn to dance, make others laugh and so on and so forth. Unless he all of that he cannot even rightfully complain he’s not getting laid. And even doing all this is guarantee of any success.

    And here we are women who have their lives in the fucking toilet having the sex lives that men can only dream of.


  69. Tim:

    It’s just a function of the difference between men and women. For all of human history, women have been the gatekeepers of sex. Men are much more sexually available to women than women are to men.

    When I broach this subject with women I get the following:

    1. NAWALT

    2. Well, all the men I see are getting laid left and right (apex fallacy)

    3. We can’t get those men to commit. Men are afraid of commitment (No, they aren’t afraid to commit; it’s that they don’t have to commit)

    4. I thought if I slept with them maybe he’d want to see me again. I’m doing this ‘cuz I want a relationship. (yeah. Riiiiiiiight. If you really wanted a relationship you’d sleep with the beta guys who would give you a ring and a date RIGHT NOW. Given a choice between hot monkey sex with alpha men, and marriage to a beta, you’ll pick the hot sex. Every. Single. Time.)


  70. Deti

    No. I just think whimmin find fewer men sexually desirable. Its not due to culture. Its not due to supply and demand either. its just a natural tendency to find fewer men attractive. Nothing more nothing less. I think its about time the mainstream society acknowledges this obvious and unmistakable reality. I think this should be taught in the science class in high school. I’m not kidding. I want to grow up in a world where I grow up knowing all the bitter realities. Atleast it will provide a catharsis to men. But whimmin dont want men to have a catharsis either.


  71. Relevant article here:

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/09/14/hookinguprealities/sex-and-the-pareto-principle/

    I’m with you Tim. Nobody said life was fair, but someone should have told me about this shit when I was in school. Middle school. At least then I wouldn’t have spent 20 years in a perpetual state of “what the fuck?!”


  72. TIm:

    “I just think whimmin find fewer men sexually desirable. Its not due to culture. Its not due to supply and demand either. its just a natural tendency to find fewer men attractive.”

    Yes. We’re saying the same thing.


  73. @deti

    Thank you for the other definitions. I have another question though…What makes some sex “hot” and other sex “not”?

    I mean, my lover is 15 years my senior, 6’3″ compared to my 5’7″, has graying hair, is 50lbs overweight, wears glasses, and is a complete nerd (more than I can ever hope to be!) Yet I find him to be one of the sexiest men I’ve ever known…I don’t even look at other guys when he’s around. Every time we have sex, it just leaves me wanting more, holding my breath till the next time we can be together. I love his body, but I love the mind that goes WITH the body even more.

    But other women look at him and see his age, his geekiness, his poor clothing choices, anything but HIM, really. How can someone rock your world so much…but be shunned by so many others your age? It doesn’t make any sense, at least to me.


  74. Anna:

    Re your BF: Girls like what they like, I guess. Some girls just dig older, geeky guys.

    It’s like men and what body parts on girls they like. Some men are breast men, some are ass men, some are into legs. Most men dig blonds; some are into brunettes; and a few like gingers.

    What makes some sex “hot” and other sex “not”? From whose standpoint? From a woman’s? My theory is that women have all kinds of different reasons for having sex. Sometimes it’s to scratch an itch; sometimes it’s validation and affirmation; sometimes it’s animal lust excitement.

    For men, we really just want the release, the orgasm, the spreading of the seed. Otherwise, I really doubt a lot of men would bother with it.


  75. Involuntary celibacy is one of the worst kinds of abuse. It’s anti-rape. It comes from an abuser who hides in full sight. They claim innocence because the abuse leaves no evidence. The sufferer is abused a second time when the claims fall on deaf ears. InCel is real and sufferer numbers are growing. http://wp.me/P2KLp8-2


  76. hey M3, a fellow incel here from America. read my blog as well. One question to you though, would be have you considered moving to a non-feminists country? Or even learn Spanish, take up some traveling in South America?


  77. [...] like Mr. M3, I have a lost decade. I’ve gone over again in my head if this is something I want to blog about–it is a big [...]


  78. This post.. Took serious courage and needs to be said and shown around the world to every single NICE GUY. All males need to read this and be told.. “Yes you moron. This WILL BE YOU!” Listen to what women DO, not what they SAY. Learn your worth is not to bow to them. It is to lead them and show them your power. Rock on.


  79. Fantastic posting. I would add that even for women who are not promiscuous in their young years, they can still do damage to regular men. Most of the women I dated were girl-next-door types, and yet, they consistently friend-zoned me. Was it in favor of a man with better looks, more money, or higher status? Sometimes they did not have another man lined up yet. No – but they probably thought if they waited a bit longer, that such a guy would come along.

    A woman’s status is elevated by the number of men she turns down. So, by turning me down, she validates her own attractiveness, boosts her confidence, and thinks she can do better.

    Thanks to the interwebs, it is possible to see what such women are doing these days. I know the first girl I crushed on is overweight and alone. The second is not overweight, but her face definitely shows her mid-40s age, and is also unmarried. The third did marry, but in her late 30s. Looks unremarkable now. and is probably too old for children without expensive medical treatment.

    The most recent one did not work out not through her own fault. She worked for me, and since it was a small family business, it would have been unethical. Yes, ethics do matter, especially if you think no one is watching. But her economic status required she move back to her hometown on the West Coast (single mom). Once she moved back to her home town, she married a guy within a year. Then, after 2 years of marriage to a guy who seems like a decent chap, I get an email from her saying, “I still think about you.” and includes a cheese-cake picture of her with her girlfriends on a night out.

    The successful marriages I see tend to be upper-class ones. My brother is married to a woman my age, but she is out of shape. His six-figure income means she does not have to work. Although she complains about how “busy” she is with the kids. I guess earlier generations of women were not “busy”.

    My cousin married a good guy a few years out of college (after she had a more wild youth than he did). While he makes a good income, they still needed her dad’s help in securing a home loan in a tony neighborhood. If they aimed at a more modest neighborhood, they might not have needed the help. But she has always been a daddy’s girl, although daddy is starting to resent it. But she may be spoiled, but not stupid. She knows that her husband’s good looks means he has options, so she keeps herself in shape and is a helluva cook.


  80. @Ted

    Not to completely knock your theory, but what if the woman simply doesn’t want a relationship? It could be that she just isn’t looking for a man right then, rather than her trying to wait for someone “better”.

    Case in point; I have a nice FwB “relationship” that I’ve been in for nearly 7 years now. Most people would say it’s not ‘real’…and I suppose that they may be right. But I’ve (very gently and politely) turned away a great many potential boyfriends because I don’t want anything more serious than what I currently have. It never makes me feel good/superior or more attractive to turn a guy down. I don’t know how it could make ANY female feel that way…but then again, I’m speaking as a tomboy.


  81. @ Anna

    So despite being a Tomboy you still had several guys interested in you that you turned down. Plus you’re in a convenient FwB arrangement.

    You know it lights up a firecracker up women’s asses when they’re told that dating and obtaining sex is easier for them.
    I’ve been debating this topic a lot and they really get defensive and bring up examples of outliers like Tomboys (who are supposed to be unattractive to men) and claim that they dont get any opportunities either and dating/sex is as difficult for women as it is for men.

    Next time, Im gonna tell those women to stfu.


  82. @Tim

    You should.
    The vast majority of incel sufferers have been and probably always will be men. Are there a few women who also are suffering from severe anxiety disorders, debilitating shyness, awkwardness, general unattractiveness, etc.? Of course…but for every 1 of those females, there is probably 20 males. The women that you’re talking to obviously have never browsed the manosphere…much less the results that simply come up from a mere Google search about incel.

    I’ve been a tomboy my whole life, for as long as I can remember. I hit puberty when I was 10, and have had peers of either sex asking me out since I was 13. (So I’ve turned down girls as well as boys.) You (presumably) know from my previous comments exactly why I did this and why I was afraid of relationships and sex.

    Personally, I have *always* been surprised that I have suitors to turn away in the first place. I don’t wear any makeup, always put my hair up into a bun or ponytail, never wear girly clothes/shoes, and I’m 10 lbs overweight. I would grade myself as a 4.

    But I’ve asked potential suitors (male and female), friends (gay and straight) and my lover why I’m apparently more attractive than I think. They said it’s because, while I’m not feminine, I obviously still take care of myself. My skin is clear and blemish free, my hair is waist long and silky, 10 lbs looks like nothing compared to the 50+ lbs of other women my age, and my eyes are big and bright. Most surprising of all was that they mentioned my smile/laugh. As my lover put it, “your smile reaches your eyes, and it makes the person you’re smiling at feel like they are the sole reason for it being there”. The above people grade me at a 7, or an 8 when I dress up feminine and wear girly things.

    I guess you should tell the women you speak to that they should have more genuine smiles, and kinder personalities if they don’t want to be shown up by a tomboy that men supposedly aren’t attracted to…


  83. Anna,

    Thank you for your response. If these women in question were not looking for a relationship, then why did they come to me whenever they had a problem? Whether it was coursework, issues with their family, issues on the job, or agreeing to be join her when she was stuck having lunch with a co-worker they did not want to be with – in those instances, they could call on me. It seemed they were more than happy to take up my time, as a boyfriend would be willing to do, without having to go to bed with me. It sure seemed they were ready for an emotional relationship, but not a physical one.

    Your being a tomboy does not change this expectation – men are expected to ask out women, and women decide whether to accept. Whether that girl is a tomboy or a Playboy pinup – it is she who decides who gets into her bed. This continues into marriage, where we have the well-established pattern of “Not tonight, I have a headache.” Tomboy is not the same as unattractive, so your repeated mentioning of that does not really disprove much of what is written here.

    To return to the matter of women not wanting a relationship. It would be more accurate to say, “I am not looking for a relationship with you at this point in time.” Consider how quickly women change their clothing, fashions, home remodelings, hair color, hair styles, etc. If a single unattached woman believes her options in a male companion will improve if she waits a bit longer, she will do so. Even if she has a good man, if she believes a better option is available – even if that option is being an alimony-supported single-mom, she will pursue it.

    It is now estimated that 58% of first-time births in the U.S. are to single mothers. What was once a source of shame, is now just another choice – one subsidized by taxpayer dollars. Why shouldn’t a modern woman have an alpha’s bastard child, get some government assistance, and then sucker some beta into being a stepdad?


  84. @Ted

    You bring up some interesting discussion points. I’ll try to address each one as I see it.

    First, I’d have to know a little more about how the women you mention really acted. If they simply asked you for favors and never attempted to return them…they were using you. If they did offer you assistance or invite you places, then they thought you were a good friend. As you may recall, all of my friends are male. If one of them comes over to help me put up a shelving unit, he doesn’t expect a blowjob in return. Instead, I’ll offer to help wash/wax his car, watch his pets while he’s on vacation or help him move. That’s what friends do for each other, unless it’s an entirely one sided “friendship”…in which case I’d say leave it.

    Secondly, I recognize that being a tomboy doesn’t automatically equal unattractive, but many people believe it nonetheless. It is what it is. And I greatly dislike the inequality of the female always choosing when the best time for sex is. I feel that it creates a disjointed relationship, with the male needs constantly being labeled as secondary to the female’s needs. I’m not saying the the female should be forced into sex against her will (nor should the guy)…but would it really kill these “headache” women to just give a quick blowjob or handjob with some cuddling for their man afterwards? I’m trying to get this iidea through to my FwB, because he *always* wants me to initiate the sex. Again, I’m not into the “bad boy” crap…I’d just like to know that he wants me as much as I want him every once in a while. I hate that Feminist thought has made guys so afraid to embrace their wonderful sexuality.

    Third, I don’t hang out with women, so I don’t really know exactly how they act all the time. I’ll take your word for it with their indecisive/changing moods…I see enough of it from my few female customers or when I’m out in public to extrapolate. I can only speak for myself when I say this: I know there may be a man out there who is better for me than my FwB. However, I am completely content in my relationship and feel no desire to look elsewhere. How can the grass be greener on the “other side” when you have a yard/relationship that looks like the Emerald Isle?

    And lastly, I’m just going to say that I too am disgusted and frustrated about the current teen/single mother situation. Now, my mother was a single mom with me til I was 7 and she remarried. But she worked 40 hrs a week to put me through private school, and we lived at home with my grandmother, aunt, and great grandmother (their husbands were dead by car or cancer by the time I was born…or didn’t exist, in my aunt’s case). We were never on welfare, never used food stamps, and never took any money for granted. I learned early on that if you wanted something, you had to actually work for it.

    Contrast THAT with my slightly younger half sister who has 3 children by 3 dads, lives with a different guy in Section 8 housing, smokes, drinks, and is on welfare…Yes, this country has a huge problem. I know this only too well, and am just glad that I have the brains and morals to not accept it as “normal”.


  85. Dude, thank you. Thank you. I’m still in the Beta Nice Guy state, but I’m making sure I at least work out and achieve the goals I write down every day. One small step at a time, right?


  86. Anna,

    I’m sorry to hear about the frustrations you are having with your half-sister and the poor choices she has made. But, I’d welcome your opinion on this – does it seem to you that while a man is expected to deal with a woman’s past bad decisions, there is less pressure on women to treat men in the same fashion?

    If a woman has a kid out of wedlock, it is considered bad form for a man to say out loud that he does not want to date such a woman, since it reflects poorly on her part. No man enters the dating world hoping to find a woman who brings baby daddy drama to the relationship. If a woman has money issues, he is expected to look past that, and if he is looking long term, should find ways to help her out. If she is caring for an elderly parent, would a man be a boor to say that he does not want to date someone who has to clean an adult diaper? Who needs that buzz-kill?

    Yet, women in those circumstances can still find men – maybe not quality men, but they can cut short their incel status if they adjust their standards, even if for a meaningless one night stand.

    A man with the same set of problems – kids, money, extended family – faces a far less forgiving dating/marriage world. Furthermore, he is judged harshly for not getting his life together. There are some guys who are messed up, but because they are willing to engage of duplicity, are able to still get sex. A man who is not as well-versed in playing the game just learns to live without.

    I recently turned 40, and live a hermit like existence. I wake up, go to my dead-end job in a small business that is down to 4 full time employees, go home, watch a little TV, go to sleep, and do it again the next day. I am at the age where if I were to share my lack of dating experience with a woman, I’d be considered “weird”, “a creep”, “a loser”, etc.

    Speaking only for myself, I can say that the only thing a woman can offer to me is sex, and all my life, they have not been willing to oblige. I can cook for myself, I do my own shopping, and I have kept a cleaner home than any single woman I have ever known. A caring ear, a compassionate heart, a simple warm hug – I let go of those illusions a long time ago.

    The only successful marriages I have seen are ones where the man has taken care of all the real needs – house, car, medical bills, vacations. The women do work – but their income, while often sizable in its own right, is a bonus. Many of the women stop working or cut back once they have kids, since their doctor/banker/IT exec husbands make 90% of the household income.


  87. @Ted

    Thanks for the response. As I said before, I’m on a different perspective in regards to the “single mother” issue. My mother was single wiith me due to the harsh physical abuse of my father. He was/is a pathological liar and a nonrepentent drunkard, who harmed both me and my mother despite me being his first child and them being legally wed. In cases such as this, or if the woman is a widow with children…then I would say that a man refusing to date her ONLY for that reason is placing blame where it doesn’t belong.

    However, I would say the same of a single woman who refuses to date widowers or men who have fled an abusive wife with their children. You cannot have your cake and eat it too…Double standards have no place in a logical, humanistic society. Maybe we’ll have a society like that someday.

    I’m sorry to hear that the women you’ve known have been unwilling to have sex with you. I truly, honestly, with all my heart wish that everybody could experience what I have with my lover. I consder myself so impossibly lucky to have what I have…and to have it for nearly 7 years so far? I won the jackpot of sexual partners/friends. I assume you have at least attempted intimacy with women…if it is not too personal or painful to relate, what do you feel went wrong in these encounters?

    I live an otherwise single life just as you do, but am not a hermit at all. I have a gaming group who plays D&D and Werewolf twice a week. I work at a lively store, and have recently spoken to my boss about further employment possibilities for myself, and I generally care about my customer base. (I’ll even buy the guys food sometimes when they’re broke, lol.) I also volunteer at my local ASPCA once a month and visit the food pantry every other month. It feels great to help others who are less fortunate…even though I am not terribly well off myself. Have you considered reaching out to your community every once in a while? I find it is a great way to meet others who share the same interests as you…

    If someone like me can do it, just about anyone can! This way, you stay single but active in your life. :)


  88. @Ted

    I’m also much like you in that I don’t “need” anyone else. I pay all my own bills, loans, groceries, etc. I’m from German stock, and learned at a very young age how to properly clean a home and tend a garden…something I actually like to do to this day. I only lost my virginity at age 20 (almost 21, honestly) but have been with that same lover/FwB this whole time. If I had to learn to navigate the casual sex/dating scence…well, I have no doubt that I would fail miserably. I don’t understand how people can share such a sacred activity with a random stranger who they have no emotional attachment to? I realize that I’m very odd for thinking this way.

    And I don’t know why ANYBODY would call you a loser or creepy for having less sexual experience. It’s highly illogical.


  89. Anna,

    Perhaps it is due to my being older than you, but I smiled to myself when you said you take great pride in paying your own bills. I have no doubt that is true. But, my own experience is that once men and women pair off, that expectation changes, especially once they move in together or get married.

    As for whether the opportunity for sex ever presented itself – looking back, I would honestly say that women expressed some possible sexual interest in me, but only when they knew for certain I was in no position to do anything about it. One summer when I was moving from Chicago to DC, the girl who friendzoned me all of a sudden said we had to spend more time together, despite the fact that I lived/worked in the burbs, and she was in the city, and all my free time was spent with the move. One night, she calls me and tells me she is coming over. I figure it’s going to happen. I run to the convenience store across the street, and buy a pack of condoms. She calls 10 minutes later, and says she can’t make it, but can I come to her place? Again, clear across town (30 minute drive minimum), and she was in a neighborhood where you need a sticker to park on the street. Since I did not have one, I was looking at a $100 parking ticket if I went to her place. I said no. We did keep in touch for awhile after I moved, but it soon trailed off.

    There is also the matter of ethnicity. You mentioned you are of German heritage – well, in North America – that means you’re white, unless you just moved here and speak with a German accent. While there is less overt objection to inter-ethnic dating, most dating is still within the group. So, there are plenty of other potential white partners.

    My parents are from India, although I was born in NY, and speak with an American accent. Not exactly near the top of the dating totem pole. Even Indian girls did not look in my direction when I was young, since they were interested in dating non-Indian men. As they got older, and had to think about bring home a nice Indian boy to Ma and Baba, I did not earn enough. Factor in my odd looks, and you had a recipe for continuous rejection. So long as a women believed she could do better, I did not have a chance..

    The last realistic shot I had was with a single mom of Vietnamese background. She was getting ready to move, then her kid got sick before the move, so nothing happened.

    I’m at the age where I am invisible to most women who are not taking my lunch/coffee order.


  90. @Ted

    Ha, yeah…that’s what I see in my own experiences too. However, my FwB and I are not going to get married, nor do we live together at any time. As I’ve said on previous threads, I have more disposable income than he does, so I usually end up paying for 90% of our “dates”. I don’t mind though, because on the odd occasion that he DOES get me a small gift or pays for dinner it really means something. To be honest, even if by some miracle our dynamic changed and we did live together, I still would contribute equally to the relationship. Egalitarian to the end, baby.

    And I’m not that young…I’ll be 30 in a little over 2 years! :P

    I’m sorry, but the first woman you spoke about sounds like she was probably not planning to have sex…more like she wanted to talk or something. If she really wanted to have sex, she should have picked you up, or made an actual date for it. Either way, she sounds a little bit inconsiderate of your time and needs. (I realize I’m an outsider looking in though, so perhaps this is a harsh assessment.) I sympathize with what happened with the Vietnamese lady…that is very unfortunate, probably for both of you since you seem like a good man.

    You are correct in that I am white. I am 5′ 7″, have waist length light blonde hair, green-grey eyes, and milk pale skin. My great-grandparents were off-the-boat German Jews who saw the writing on the wall about what was happening and got out in time. And yes, my lover is white too…though he is of Irish descent. I don’t have anything against Indian guys, or even black, Hispanic or Asian guys, they just don’t seem interested in me that much. I’ve had numerous male friends of those ethnicities though.

    I understand what you mean about being “presentable” for the woman’s parents. I’ve heard from many sources that even in America and the UK there is still a bit of a “caste” among Indian families. I can see how having a smaller income would come back to bite you romantically. I have no clue what you mean by your “odd looks” though. I don’t know what you mean, sorry!

    And I should probably tell you that although I am 27, my lover is 41. I don’t know how old you are…but unless you are 90 years old, someone could be looking at you. Again, I (in my foolish youth) recommend getting out there every once in a while. Surely there is *some* hobby that piques Ted’s interest? Just because we are single doesn’t necessarily mean we have to be hermits. Come on, if someone who is INTJ like myself can find enjoyment in the company of others (in moderation) that you can as well!


  91. Sorry for responding so late, but my point was that both men and women hold solipsistic worldviews, mainly due to hardwiring, and the teachings (that come from both the right and left, from both men and women – not just the left or from women alone) of our blue pill society.

    My thesis is that in a free society with birth control and feminism, there is no way to put the genie back in the bottle. There can be no expectation that women will have low-n counts, and it should always be assumed that women have high-n counts. Low-n count women (who aren’t any less hypergamous than high-n women) really can’t be believed anyway, and in an instant if they choose can easily become unfaithful, high-n count women. Low-n good girl type of women (even if married, of any political, economic or cultural background) are amongst the easiest women for alphas and PUA’s to bang. If the low-n “soulmate” good girl wants to hurt her husband/long term bf, she can go online and arrange for 10 men to gangbang and bukkake her in her and her husband/bf’s bedroom – and their is nothing legally he can do about it. This is the SMP we are dealing with. Men need to proceed accordingly and support MRA (also legalize prostitution, so he can go out and bang 10 ultra hot women quickly and easily as well) and learn game, to genuinely become more attractive, and attempt to raise their own n-counts, not lower womens’, which as I stated is not really possible and can’t be trusted. Also, when women reduce their sexual activity/number of partners, it is almost always at the expense of betas. Women will not stop having sex with alphas – they will just sneak around and hide it from the clueless betas as they have throughout our evolutionary history. Other women (including low-n good girls) will always support them in this pursuit (feminism, i.e. matriarchy, is just a political version of this “sisterhood”).

    IOW, women (and alphas) will always have a natural advantage in the non-monogamous, non-committed sex market (one night stands, recreational sex, friends with benefits, etc).

    However, the flipside is that men(including betas) should always have a natural advantage in the monogamous commitment (long term relationships, engagement, marriage, etc) market. The problem is feminism enhances women’s (and alphas) natural advantage in the sex market, and suppresses men’s (especially betas) natural advantage in the commitment market.

    The way the market should work is this: the female 5 can indeed choose to have non-committed sex with whoever she wants, usually male 7′s or higher. You go girl. But whatever choices she makes (even if the low-n good girl path, for reasons I stated above) she can no longer expect to get the male 5 for commitment. Patriarchy (pre-birth control era) is really the only thing that ever made such an “assortative mating” pairing possible. In our post-sexual revolution “take-no-prisoners” matriarchal darwinian market where the typical woman has a much higher n-count than the typical man, where the general perception is that of high female hypergamy, low female fidelity and paternity uncertainy, where men have to have very good reasons for giving up either their PUA (the quest for casual pussy whenever can get it even if not to alpha levels) and/or MGTOW(videogames, porn, prostitutes, drop-out and reject the system) lifestyle – a market where true male committment is a scarce resource indeed – should therefore command a high price.

    The female 5 then should only expect committment from a male 3, and the male 5 should only commit to the female 7. Adjust the formula slightly for very low or high female n. IOW, hypergamy should reverse itself and advantage men (especially betas) in the commitment market.


  92. @Anna,

    I just don’t see how your fwb is a “beta”: he’s had sex with 18 women (and possibly bj and hj’s from several more women); he’s in his 40′s and banging a much younger, cute looking (although tomboy, which lots of guys like anyway as long as she’s at least somewhat cute as you state you are) female who is sexually monogamous and committed to him while he’s not required to commit or be sexually monogamous with you; you feel uplifted, flattered and validated by having sex with him; he is possibly having sex with several other women (you are possibly part of a harem); he doesn’t have to spend money on you; he’s tall (6′,3″) and “geek chic” handsome, he’s sexually skilled (i.e. has game), etc. This is alpha, or at least greater beta. He is sexually independent, can get sex when he wants, and doesn’t have to give up commitment to do so.

    True betas and omegas, as M3 and other’s writings show, don’t have game (sexual and social skills with women), have very low or zero n counts, don’t get cute women or younger women, don’t get the hot (non-committed) sex, are usually in the perpetual friendzone, don’t generally fit the masculine archetype (i.e. are generally not tall), go through long stretches of incel, women don’t like having sex with betas and tend to feel violated/unvalidated when they do, usually betas only get (boring, non-hot) sex by giving some woman an ltr or marriage as “payment” for sex (whereas alphas such as your fwb get it easily for “free”). IOW, the beta is sexually dependent on women to “grant” him sexual access, usually by paying the high price of committment, and even then, she usually stops having sex with him after she gets the committment (incel within marriage and ltr’s is common for betas).


  93. @signyourlifeonthex

    “Incel in marriage and ltr’s is common for betas”. Yes, I know. He has informed me that this is his situation. That is why our relationship will never, ever progress beyond the FwB point. He is already “taken”.

    I know for a fact that I’m not part of a harem. You’ll just have to take my word for it. He is definitely a Beta, but a tall, good looking and gentlemanly one. As the college he went to had a 1:3 male to female ratio, it should be no surprise that he was able to get 18 women over 4 years…especially since his major was very “artsy” and the women there were all “empowered” types who fully embraced their sexuality. It is simply a matter of being the right type of person, with the right personality + right place/right years.

    But yeah, he is not a PUA nor is he an Alpha. Neither of those types would have had the patience, inclination or gentleness that my FwB needed to coax me into my dormant sexuality. Perhaps I used to feel validated by his attentions 6 years ago, but only because he was the first guy I’d ever met who didn’t assume I wasn’t broken. When every other man who has ever asked you out/hit on you comes on impossibly strong and masculine…when that is the very thing you are totally terrified of…then calls you a frigid bitch because you’re not used to touching much less kissing…It is so goddamn wonderful to fnd a man like my FwB who is willing to let me progress into my sexuality at my own pace.

    My story is (quite fortunately) not like that of many women my age. I’ll be 28 next month, and to date have only ever had my FwB as a lover. I know that our relationship cannot last, and I’m almost amazed it has lasted this long. But I’m a very loyal type of person, and I know what I like. My likes/dislikes have not changed in the 7 years I’ve known him. He is still the only man I’ve ever been seriously attracted to, and never have I entertained the idea of introducing another into my life.

    Like I pointed out though: I was/am broken. I can only pray that most girls do not have childhoods like mine, and that they grow into their sexuality sooner than I could.


  94. @ Anna

    Breaking away from my hiatus just to throw something at you… duck! :)

    “But yeah, he is not a PUA nor is he an Alpha. Neither of those types would have had the patience, inclination or gentleness that my FwB needed to coax me into my dormant sexuality.”

    I would surmise your fwb is alpha. signyourlifeontheex did a very good summation of all the reasons why + i would say the only reason your fwb did have any patience,inclination or gentleness to coax you was because he WAS sexually sated by another woman so there was no push on his part. No starvation mentality. No PUA need to escalate quickly. He treated you like a ‘plate’ on the side, a pet project, someone to work on while his bed was already warm.

    He may show you all the best qualities of his great beta, because he is afforded the ability to, but i would definitely class him as an alpha simply based on his actions.

    Anyways, back to the shadows.

    I’ll be making an information post shortly regarding the direction of this blog for the future and my Redpill room interview coming later this week.

    Cheers!


  95. Anna,

    While you say that you are quite happy with your FWB, I believe signyourlifeonthex and M3 both make a strong case that the fellow in question is not quite the beta you think he is. 18 women in four years is impressive, no matter how lopsided the male:female ratio. A guy who went hitless in college, as I did in a school that was nearly 1:1, does not hold the same cachet for a woman. A woman does not want a male slut, but she does want an unwanted man either.

    Chris Rock put it best in this very NSFW bit:

    I know your intentions are good, but it is hard for an incel man to take advice from a women who is getting sex on a regular basis on what he needs to do. I have been thin my whole life. When I went to college, I toned up my body, but did not bulk up. I have never weighed more than 145 pounds at 5′ 10″ tall. I am the least qualified person to give advice to a fat guy on how to lose weight, because I have never been in his situation.

    I enjoy drinking, but have never abused it. I can unwind with one glass of scotch, and leave it at that. I am that least qualified person to give advice to an alcoholic on how he can kick his addiction, because it is something I never went through. So I cannot fathom the pain he feels when he recovers from a bender.

    A woman getting sex on a regular basis is just not in a position to give an incel man advice, or know what he is going through. For many, many years, I saw a therapist, just to have someone to listen to me without judgment.. She was very nice, attractive, and understanding. But at one point, I had to ask bluntly, “Can you imagine going 14 years without sex? If you were not handicapped or had any health issues, and you did not have any religious vow, can you imagine it?”

    She paused for a moment, and honestly answered, “No.” She was over 50, divorced, but in decent shape – I’ve seen women in my age bracket or younger in far worse shape. She knew that it was easier for a woman to decide when to have sex than it was for a man. She may not get the man of her choice, but if she wants a short-term fling, she could get one.

    Another example of how comics utter truths that our medical/religious leaders dare not utter, Bill Maher once joked, “Women complain that men think about sex all the time. Well, it’s easier for you [women] to not think about it, because you know when you’re going to get it!”


  96. @M3

    No starvation mentality? Lol, if you call only having sex once every 4 months “sated” that’s entirely up to you. Like Sign said, many Betas have icel marriages…totally fits with what my FwB suffers with. Looking from the outside, yes it does look like he has Alpha qualities. But you haven’t known him for 7 years…you have never seen him cry, watched him smile, struggle with his desire for sex with his spouse and the denial thereof. Is there a possibility he used to be an Alpha in college? Sure, I’ll concede to that. All I know is that for the years *I’ve* known him, he has considered himself Beta. Perhaps marriage changed him?

    @Ted
    I would absolutely never try to tell am incel man how to be. It is not my place to give advice that I can’t test out myself. I wish that men would follow this same advice with me though, in regards to how I am with my own sexuality.
    If you’ve never been incel, you shouldn’t be giving advice about how to get through it, or comparing them to guys who are obviously not incel.
    If you haven’t been sexually abused for 10 years, you shouldn’t be telling people how to get through that, or comparing them to women who have never been abused.

    Tit for tat, my friends.


  97. And I don’t mean for that last part to sound snarky or arrogant. I’m just pointing out an inconsistency I’ve noticed at times. It isn’t directed toward anyone in particular.


  98. Why in all that time didn’t you patronize prostitutes? And did you ever try to approach women far below your own sexual market value?

    “My issue was i always believed i was not handsome, rugged or built well enough to attract initial attention. I had poor self image. All the advice to the contrary, telling me I WAS OK AS I WAS allowed me to abdicate my responsibility to start working on that issue.”

    Well, people who are your friends and family or otherwise don’t want to hurt you are not going to want to hurt you by telling you something negative about yourself, especially if you have never done anything bad to them. That’s just the way it is.

    But you knew instinctively that you did have some things wrong with you so you should have just listened to your own guy.

    I’ll also add that people with mental and/or emotional issues can be perceived as “off” somehow to the people around them, and that may be one reason why you didn’t have a relationship or even sex in all those years. Women were picking up on something and being repelled. Its not uncommon for same-sex peers to also gravitate away from someone they perceive to be “off” in some way.

    Now, people close to you who love you, such as family, either may not notice this or if they do, they wouldn’t want to “bring you down” by stating it. They would want to encourage you and bring only positivity to you as long as you did nothing bad to them.

    Other people though, they will just avoid you.

    The “you” here is hypothetical and general, but it may ring true of your situation, I don’t know.


  99. “But you knew instinctively that you did have some things wrong with you so you should have just listened to your own guy.”

    GUT. Listened to your own gut.


  100. “I don’t think many females on this planet can contemplate or wrap their head around the gravity of this.”

    There are plenty of depressed women with or with suicidal ideation who can wrap your head around all that you’ve written thus far in this piece.

    ” I (and most men) cannot just walk into a bar, bat our eyelashes and get sexual validation on a moments notice for a quick ‘pick me up’ ”

    Oh I’m sure good looking women can do that, but they wouldn’t think to. Ugly women absolutely CANNOT do that.

    The women in the middle, say an average plain jane, not pretty but not hideous, maybe slightly below average or possibly fat, would not be able to get a “high value” or good looking man in the bar for a one night stand but if she hangs out til closing time then a much older, unattractive, low quality desperate slosher might stumble up to her and offer to take her out back.

    That’s hardly something to write home about.

    Similarly, even “low quality” guys can get laid if they aim low enough themselves.


  101. Ah, the race to the bottom. Just keep lowering your standards until you get some. Ain’t life grand! The other day at the grocery store parking lot I saw this guy with his woman. He was an average dude, not fat, not ugly. His woman was an absolute cow and she was ragging on him non-stop, for what I don’t know, and he just stood there and took it like a defeated, powerless, desperate man. I will never, ever sign up for that deal. Monthly pussy is not worth putting up with that shit.


  102. I copy and pasted the Sexual Marketplace Value test over at Chateau Heartiste into an email and sent it to my FwB. I asked him to take the test and answer it as though he were 20 and back in college.

    He emailed me back his test score this morning…a perfect 0. He said it was one of the strangest tests he’s ever seen, and some of the answers that got you +1 were things that just show violent tendencies like in #17, or prove you have no social skills like in #26.

    Now, there WERE things in the scenario section that he has said to women that were +1 answers, but for the test he chose the neutral option. I asked why, and he said that he’s only ever said them in a joking manner or to relieve tension. Since it seemed the test was offering them as serious rather than funny answers, like in #19, he went with the 0 point route. So, I don’t know if this skews his score or not…

    Another question I have that anyone can answer is this: Can you BE an Alpha without ACTING like an Alpha? Because if there is such a thing as an Alpha who acts like a human instead of a jerk, then I’m going to say my lover falls into that category.


  103. “Oh I’m sure good looking women can do that, but they wouldn’t think to. Ugly women absolutely CANNOT do that.

    The women in the middle, say an average plain jane, not pretty but not hideous, maybe slightly below average or possibly fat, would not be able to get a “high value” or good looking man in the bar for a one night stand but if she hangs out til closing time then a much older, unattractive, low quality desperate slosher might stumble up to her and offer to take her out back.”

    That is absolute Bullshit.
    Average looking women, plain Janes don’t have to settle for a slosher, disgusting old men. They can easily get men who are their EQUALS in attractiveness and also bit higher than them. A female 4 can easily get males 4-6 without any effort. (And with minimal effort she can go higher). This is something women say to belittle their obvious advantage in the sexual marketplace.

    Women don’t have to go lower. They can go higher. They can get sex with men who are better than them in every aspect.

    You don’t realize how fucking selective women are, that even a woman who is totally mediocre in looks, would be uninterested in casual sex with average/alright looking men. It just doesn’t impress them much. You don’t realize what women mean when they say its not easier for them to obtain casual sex. Even the least attractive woman will have her eyes on relatively attractive outgoing, confident men and when they see those men with better quality women, they say “Sure I can get a fat, bald, disgusting, unhygienic, old, broke, homeless slob to go home with me, but most men have standards”
    Its a fucking hyperbole they use ! Average/regular looking guys are all around them more than willing to have sex with them. They’re just invisible to them. They just say the “fat, old, bald disgusting creep” B.S to justify their own choices…their own self-imposed limitations.

    Just do a fucking experiment and make a dummy female profile on an adult online dating site of an AVERAGE looking woman and see how many offers she gets from guys who are AVERAGE in looks and better.

    But guess what? They fucking don’t want those men ! They are not impressed by the average looking regular dude looking for sex on these sites. These women can be mediocre themselves yet they will say “those guys are just desperate losers” They don’t need to choose the disgusting fat bald old creeps.

    Even some women have no problem admitting how easy it is for them. Just go to this link.

    http://www.xojane.com/sex/its-so-easy-have-sex-craigslist


  104. @Tim

    I think I’m going to have nightmares from reading that link. :shock:


  105. @ Anna

    why?


  106. The article from XO Jane does highlight something. This woman approached sex as if it were junk food. It was not good sex, certainly not sex with someone who mattered. Yet, for her as a woman, it was readily available.

    Contrast that to a man – an incel man cannot approach sex like junk food. As far as prostitutes go, the risk of STDs, being robbed by her pimp, or caught in a police-sting may make it a bit hard to maintain an erection. If you go to higher priced escorts, well, you have to save up for that.

    My sister-in law is an average woman – in looks (although fat women run in her family), personality, and less than average in the cooking skill department. My brother provides her a big house, a Benz in the driveway, and annual, month-long vacations to visit her parents overseas.

    An old high school buddy is married to a fat woman. She was fat when they married, while he has always been thin. He develops software that is used in satellites. She had a similar technical background, but is now a full-time mom. Does she use any time to lose weight? Nope.

    I’m not saying these guys deserved arm candy – not at all. But, they were able to look past the obvious flaws of these women, and chose to marry them. From all I can gather, they seem reasonably happy in their marriages. These are 2 examples of average or below average women getting men above their SMV.


  107. @Tim

    Bit of exaggeration there…I probably won’t have actual nightmares from reading that article. I think I’m past that point by now. However, it did cause an involuntary sense of revulsion in me that is still lasting. Its not because of it talking about addiction either; I personally have never been addicted to anything, but I sympathize with those who have been and applaud the professionals and volunteers who make it their goal to help.

    But when she was *Spoiler Warning*
    talking about how she’d cry when her internet went down, how she’d have upwards of 3 partners A DAY, how she would go back to her room and just essentially bang the guy who only showed up 10 minutes ago before showering and moving on…Oh Gods.

    Reading how she became addicted to sex, addicted to just constantly having a sexual partner available no matter who it was, talking about men as though they were simply a commodity to be used, without any thoughts to the person she was sharing sex with…it gave me a physical shock of disgust. Literally, my mouth went dry and the hair on the back of my neck stood up.

    It wasn’t even disgust like “god, she’s such a whore for having sex so much”. It was just a primal reaction to the idea of USING others for your benefit and actually getting addicted to this false sense of “validation”.

    I will admit that I love sex. I love gentle sex, rough sex, slow, quick, natural, roleplaying, with or without toys…whatever. but I’ve only ever willingly shared myself with ONE man. And I love sex partially because of my love for him, the intimacy and closeness that comes from *knowing* another’s body, and all the ways you can make him feel pleasure. If some terrible accident happened and he lost his manhood, I would be devastated. Not because he couldn’t pleasure me that way anymore…but because *I* couldn’t pleasure *him* that way.

    I don’t know, maybe it’s all due to other experiences of mine, but I cannot grasp what I read in that article. How can you disconnect so totally from an activity that is built on being connected? Are you really having sex if you don’t care about the other person? If he/she got off, that’s cool…but what’s actually important is that I did?

    I just…cannot understand what I read. It’s a concept that I’ve never allowed myself to think about outside of therapy, and is *still* so foreign that it’s beyond my comprehension. It scares me to my very core, the ability to not “feel”.

    This is why I stay away from PUA sites. A lot of their language is similar to this article, and is nearly Lovecraftian to me. :(

    I’m sorry if I’ve offended anyone by writing this. It was not my intent, and is only a representation of how I personally feel, not an attack on anyone’s lifestyle choices.


  108. Alpha != jerk


  109. To clarify, Anna and her fwb sound like good people, not attacking them personally, just trying to get to the sociosexual truth of the matter.

    Anna is the classic low-n good girl I was talking about above, who, despite being what the typical beta her age would think would be in his league, is none-the-less hypergamous and driven by similar things that high-n women are. Most of the men around her are sexually invisible. She’s attracted to “unavailable” men with sexual experience, i.e men who other women have or want (preselection, hypergamy). She doesn’t mind being “one of many”(polygyny, de facto harem) for a guy like this, who is older and married – a guy who can get sweet young fwb pussy which is something that is in very high demand and is only available to probably less than 5 percent of men his age.

    Just because he’s a gentleman does not mean he’s not alpha. This is a very common misperception in the manosphere and elsewhere, that alpha always equals a high-t, macho attitude. The legendary Casanova was a suave and sensitive lover, for example. As you said your fwb is an intellectual artsy type. Most of the guys in this category are not macho – many are smaller and even effeminate – yet many have high-n counts and women chase them endlessly. Game comes in many forms, and is not always about overt dominance.

    Alpha more than anything else is about sociosexual “wealth”, status and power. This is what truly defines who is alpha, beta, omega – rank or class within the SMP. It’s about the ability to be perceived by women more as “the lover” and less as “the provider”. Women ultimately decide which men are most trendy and desirable, and as a result of their (women’s) collective and individual sexual choices at any given time, certain men rise to the top of the sociosexual hiearchy. Such men then have access to greater quantity/quality of sex acts (hot, dirty, sweet or however and as often as he wants it) with greater quantity/quality (pretty, young or whatever his particular taste is) women for lower “prices” (little-to-no committment, monogamy, dates, chivalry, money, etc that women typically force betas to “pay” to gain access to sex).

    The men who can do this best are the most alpha in the SMP – regardless of whether they’re aggressive or sensitive, smart or dumb, rich or poor or whatever. It is fundamentally about male sexual value/choice/independence – which betas do not have, who are usually forced to take whatever women and the market dish out to them.


  110. @Signyourlifeonthex

    Interesting stuff. So, in other words, despite the fact that I don’t want marriage, am not interested in ever having children, and occupy a slightly higher position of economic wealth than my lover…the evolved feminine tendency to seek out an older mate is still present? I suppose that could be true, and would explain why I’m attracted to his gentle-yet-masculine qualities while conversely not caring about commitment or money.

    Previously, I was under the impression that hypergamy meant that if any man who was better looking/wealthier/stronger than my FwB came along and was available, then I’d drop my FwB like a sack of rocks without a second thought to his feelings. But if it just refers to the purely biological propensity to look for the most suitable mate…Yes, that makes sense and I can admit that there is good reason to assume this is the case. Of course, being a thinking and empathic human means that one can recognize a fault or genetic tendency for what it is and make conscious decisions to NOT act on it. Like how I’ve never had more than one drink with a meal or out with friends since I know that I’m genetically predisposed to be alcoholic. Just like the experience of getting drunk is not worth the loss of dignity, chasing after a “better” man is not worth ruining a relationship over.

    @Yohami
    Yes, I see that now. While my FwB does have some Beta qualities, it is possible that he is an Alpha who thinks himself a Beta. I had thought that the Alpha traits described by Heartiste were the only “true” ones…that of a man who simply walks away from a conversation, who refuses to compromise, will act completely disinterested in someone, who never apologizes, and who is severely macho and slightly chauvinistic.

    Obviously, my lover is the exact opposite of this. The type of Alpha often described on the Manosphere seems for more typical of what I detailed above, than the type of Alpha who is caring, suave, and confident without being an egoistical womanizer. I particularly liked how Sign pointed out that Casanova could be considered an Alpha…especially since this is how I refer to my lover sometimes. :)

    It’s interesting to know that, given these definitions, even “nerds” like the majority of my customers could be Alphas. I guess that explains why so many of them have girlfriends despite being overweight, poor and somewhat socially inept…


  111. Alphas vs betas. Do they lead or follow? do they eager to please, or expect to be pleased? do they overpay, or make you overpay? if the transaction is fair (none is overpaying) who’s setting the rules for such fair transaction? when things are in a good mood, who’s setting the mood? who initiate, who commands?

    The beta bends and get sucked by you, the alpha sucks you in. The beta is a guest and acts according to your rules, with the alpha you’re the guest and you act according to his. The beta is always trying to earn your respect, the alpha inspires respect.


  112. “That is absolute Bullshit.
    Average looking women, plain Janes don’t have to settle for a slosher, disgusting old men. They can easily get men who are their EQUALS in attractiveness and also bit higher than them. A female 4 can easily get males 4-6 without any effort. (And with minimal effort she can go higher). ”

    Your probably right. I was thinking more along the lines of not downright ugly, but definitely not “attractive” women, such as fat ones. Plain Janes are average and fall in the middle of the spectrum and it is true that when they spruce up, they are capable of increasing their looks value.

    How about Lena Dunham’s character “Hannah” on HBO Girls?

    In one way she’s average but I think in that show for the most part she strikes me as even below the average Plain Jane. Now, when you see her spruced up on interviews as her real self, hair done, makeup, clothing fitted for body type, she looks considerably better than her frumpy TV character, but I’d categorize her glammed up still as a Plain Jane. Not ugly, certainly not beautiful, simply average, who I would expect to be paired with an average looking man.

    How she looks on the show, the below average frumpy Hannah character, is what I was imagining in my scenario of the woman in a bar who does not get approached until closing time. Maybe even 30 pounds heavier.


  113. “Alphas vs betas. Do they lead or follow? do they eager to please, or expect to be pleased? do they overpay, or make you overpay? if the transaction is fair (none is overpaying) who’s setting the rules for such fair transaction? when things are in a good mood, who’s setting the mood? who initiate, who commands?

    The beta bends and get sucked by you, the alpha sucks you in. The beta is a guest and acts according to your rules, with the alpha you’re the guest and you act according to his. The beta is always trying to earn your respect, the alpha inspires respect.”

    Healthy relationships are symbiotic with both partners giving and taking. Complementing each other. Completing each other. Working as a team. Yin and yang.

    If your relationship isn’t like this, something is askew and you most likely should not be together.


  114. Im describing beta vs alpha behavior so anna can see that is not about jerkish stuff. Not talking about relationships.

    But I agree with what you said, sans the “healthy”.

    All relationships, healthy or not have both partners giving and taking, complementing and completing each other, for the better or the worse. Ying and yang, ying and ying, yang and yang.

    For it to be healthy it requires so much more.


  115. “The beta bends and get sucked by you, the alpha sucks you in.”

    If the only choice is between the two extremes above, I’ll bow out of the game altogether.


  116. There are plenty of choices and grades between any given polarity spectrum.

    Again, Im describing alpha vs beta. Like describing shiny vs dark. Im sure you can find a dimmer somewhere.

    If your idea is to have something where both partners give and take and host and guest “equally” you´ll need a few dildos and bed contortionism for making it work. Whatever rocks your boat.


  117. “If your idea is to have something where both partners give and take and host and guest “equally” you´ll need a few dildos and bed contortionism for making it work. ”

    Haven’t *needed* either thus far.


  118. :-)


  119. Here’s some Yin & Yang for you. ;)

    http://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/03/eye-candy-sugar-daddies-cougars-oh-my-nsfw-alyssa-royse/


  120. that is anything but whatever healthy you were mumbling about


  121. @Sexual Free Market
    I agree that the relationship should be as close to equal as possible so that both partners can contribute to the healthiness of it. Like Yohami, I’m a little confused about the article you linked to… I also haven’t needed toys to create equality in the bedroom, but they are very fun to have anyway. ;)

    @Yohami
    Thank you for that nice piece you wrote about Alpha vs Beta. It was quite helpful, and I can now see that my lover does, in fact, have Alpha qualities without being a pigheaded jerk. But I noticed that I actually have a majority of these qualities too, like the fact that I’m the one who takes the initiative in sex and I’m the one who “overpays” for our food/entertainment. In most other things, I’d say we are pretty equal. Does this mean I’m an “Alpha Female”, or is it just because I’m a tomboy?


  122. OK so what about my premise that the Hannah character on Girls, or someone who looks like her but 30-50 pounds heavier could NOT walk into a bar and “get automatic sex” from any man of her choice? That she’d most likely have to wait until closing time and take whatever beer goggle wearing dregs are left?


  123. She could get a man of equal sexual market value. This is the sticking point. She doesn’t want equal. A man of the same overweight stature and looks would be happy enough to be with her, whereas she will be disgusted to be settling.


  124. Anna, the one who overpays is the beta ;-)

    Alphas have more value, they have to do little to be “equal”, a gesture, a kiss, letting you know they care, and that makes up for years of paying dinners and stuff. Ask any male beta orbiter.

    You’re a rare case for sure, but we already know that. Then beyond this all alpha beta behavior stuff, we’re just very compatible with other people and not so with others. Im sure your fwb clicks with you in many areas beyond of who’s taking the reigns.

    Is he married? I didnt know that before.

    Alpha females are… not tomboys. They are the chicks you probably dont like.


  125. @Yohami

    So *I’m* the beta here, huh? Lol, and here I thought I was just trying to be equal since I make more than him…income ratios, and all that stuff. Well, whatever. I’m happy, he’s happy, it is what it is, right?

    And you’re correct: Beyond this talk of Alpha behavior vs Beta behavior we fulfill each other’s needs/wants fairly well. Yes, he’s married…I wish he could tell his wife. I have absolutely no intention of trying to “claim” him for myself, part of the reason I like our relationship so much is thst I don’t have to worry about him ever proposing to me, or wanting to share living quarters. I’m still INTJ…still need my space.

    I wish everyone could have someone in their life who makes them this happy…though maybe without making them “overpay” on every dinner like I do. (Just kidding!)


  126. “Is he married? I didnt know that before.”

    Extra-marital affair?


  127. “She could get a man of equal sexual market value. This is the sticking point. She doesn’t want equal. A man of the same overweight stature and looks would be happy enough to be with her, whereas she will be disgusted to be settling.”

    If you’re in the US, then surely, like me, you see ugly and average and overweight people paired off with their equals all the time. Walmart, Dollar General, Family Dollar, Big Lots, the low end shops and neighborhoods are full of these couples.

    In fact, I don’t ever think I’ve seen an unattractive woman with an attractive man.

    I do sometimes see average, moderately cute women with men who might be 1, maximum 2, points higher than them in looks. That’s still in the same range.

    I’ve never seen 3 with a 7 or a 4 with an 8.

    People generally mate within 2 points of their own number on the scale.


  128. @ Sexual Free Market

    Yes. We started out as friends, and it went from there. I’ve asked him about it recently, and he said that he “found my self imposed innocence intriguing” and couldn’t “resist fixing a broken bird”. An odd reason for pursuing someone, but I’m eternally grateful that he did. It is a debt that I’m unsure I can ever truly repay…no matter how many movie tickets I buy for him. ;)


  129. So you’re both married and cheating or he’s the only one?
    You don’t find this un-ethical?


  130. @Sexual Free Market

    Me, married? Heck no, I could never handle something like that. I’m still a happily introverted person…no marriage or children for me, thank you! I’ll be 28 next month, and have yet to hear any “ticking” of my biological clock. I’m pretty sure it just never got wound up in the first place.

    As for it being unethical…according to whose ethics? There are numerous cultures around the world that acknowledge the fact that people cheat for love or sex. In America and most of Europe, it gets hidden away and no one talks about it even though it’s ever present. I personally blame the Puritan values that the US was partially founded on.

    I suppose I could ask if it’s ethical for a wife to know her husband has a high sex drive, yet only give him any every four months…but that’s a bit of a cop out. So I’ll just say that we are very careful about the situation. Since he is my only lover, I have no STDs that I could give him. Since he has had a vasectomy, he can’t get me pregnant. We live nearly 3 hours away from each other, so are only together about twice a month. I never speak ill of his wife, and would never, ever try to break them up. Also, Anna is not my real name, and you’ll never hear me mention where I work or where he works/lives. I care about him…I don’t want to ruin his life.

    I’m guessing you disapprove. I don’t mind, you are entitled to your options just like everyone else. I am not going to explain myself anymore though, so fair warning.


  131. “As for it being unethical…according to whose ethics? There are numerous cultures around the world that acknowledge the fact that people cheat for love or sex. In America and most of Europe, it gets hidden away and no one talks about it even though it’s ever present. I personally blame the Puritan values that the US was partially founded on.”

    In other words: Yes. UNETHICAL.

    “There are numerous cultures around the world that acknowledge the fact that people cheat for love or sex. ”

    Let’s see, my country count right now is 23. What’s yours?

    And EVERYONE knows that some people cheat. Are you suggesting that there are cultures that say its ok to deceive your spouse? Interesting. Which ones? I may have experience in one or more of them and can add my hands on personal perspective. So which ones?

    And if its so accepted in whatever cultures you are thinking or imagining, I would assume that after all this time accepting cheating they would have chucked the idea of traditional marriages altogether and the entire culture would be based on 2 way open relationships.

    So go on then, Anna. Which cultures?


  132. We aren’t herd animals, but I am about as sure as can be the opportunity to score sex is at least as easy for a male today as it has ever been or more (assuming he isn’t terribly choosy). And that manwithaplan’s post is candidly scary.
    by Liz February 14, 2013 at 5:13 pm

    ” I am about as sure as can be the opportunity to score sex is at least as easy for a male today”

    haha. no. multiply your estimations by x1000 if we’re talking about the average men. that’s why there are prostitutes.
    by YOHAMI February 14, 2013 at 5:34 pm
    ___

    Oh just STOP it. I don’t know where you live but the USA is SATURATED with “average men” and their average wives, girlfriends, friends with benefits, sex partners, etc.

    This argument that “average guys can’t get laid” is hogwash.


  133. @Sexual Free Market

    I don’t know what you mean by “country count”. Are you referring to foreign countries I’ve been to? In that case, 3.

    I believe I already said I’m not getting into this though. I can tell that you don’t approve of my relationship, and I’m fine with that. And no, I wish it didn’t have to be deceptive. However, I come here to comment and learn about misandry, gender roles, sex roles, and how it relates to not only my personal life but also my country and the global community.

    While I do mention it from time to time, I do not come here so that others can tell me what a horrible woman I am for being FwB with someone in a near sexless marriage. I have thought about the sociological implications, and spoken at great length with my lover about them. We have reached our own conclusions. I will politely ask again for you to refrain from asking me to defend my life choices.

    Thank you.


  134. ” I wish it didn’t have to be deceptive.”

    You’re not the one being deceptive, your “fwb” is.

    ” I do not come here so that others can tell me what a horrible woman I am for being FwB with someone in a near sexless marriage.”

    You are not the horrible one, honey, HE is.

    He doesn’t have the spine to tell his wife the truth. He is afraid of losing her. He is afraid that she will want to have a 2 way open marriage and engage in sex and/or emotional bonds with other men too.

    ” I come here to comment and learn about misandry, gender roles, sex roles, and how it relates to not only my personal life but also my country and the global community.”

    You’ve come to the right place! I’ll tell you all about gender roles and sex roles and how they relate to your country and the global community right here, right now.

    Here it is:
    Many women are very open to the idea of 2 way open relationships wherein they have a husband/life partner who they build a home and family with while maintaining 1 or more relationships with other men simultaneously. However, men like your “fwb” are still operating on an old and outdated model of 1-way deception and cheating behind their backs instead of coming clean and letting the chips fall where they may.

    The reason cheating men (and women) do this is because of fear.
    Fear that they will lose their partner if they tell them the truth or fear that their partner will want to do the same thing they are doing:
    maintain a home and family with a spouse while also spreading the love to others.

    An increasing number of women realize that monogamy does not work for them either and are very open to straightforward, clear and honest “open marriages”.

    Time for a paradigm shift!

    Your “fwb” can learn more here;
    http://www.jujumamablog.com/2012/07/31/the-myth-of-monogamy-video-series/


  135. @ Anna

    I don’t judge your choices or your FWB’s choices. I had a very intense sexual relationship with a married man before. I DID feel incredibly guilty about it and so did he and we eventually broke it off because of that. But he wasn’t getting sex from his wife and I wasn’t ready for a real relationship…so at the time it worked for us. He was somewhat of a sexual mentor to me…being 15 years older and much more experienced. We had a “50 Shades of Grey” type of sexual relationship and it was amazing. But sometimes I think about his wife and feel bad. I know what it feels like to be cheated on (my husband cheated on me and left me for his mistress). But it sounds like the two of you are getting what you need from each other. As long as you can be happy being the “other woman”, then I won’t judge you (not that you care what I think anyway!)

    I consider myself a plain Jane…probably a 5, maybe a 6 when I work at it. I was a late bloomer…I didn’t lose my virginity until I was 25. Yep, 25! Initially I waited for religious reasons. Eventually, I realized that the religion was just an excuse to avoid intimacy because my self-esteem was so low. Right before I lost my virginity I was dating a great guy, total beta, who adored me. But I didn’t feel any attraction to him. So I broke up with him and two weeks later I lost my virginity to a total alpha jerk who didn’t care about me. For the longest time, I didn’t understand why I did this. I swear, understanding hypergamy and my female nature has really shed some light on my past behavior. And like you said Anna, knowing we have these tendencies can really help us in resisting them.

    Although it does seem like “jerk” and “alpha” are often used synonymously, I really don’t believe that they are one and the same. To me, an alpha is a guy with dominant qualities who has self-respect and doesn’t take shit from anyone, especially women. An alpha can be a jerk (I’ve known plenty). Before taking the red pill, I found myself attracted to the alpha jerks. But now that I know that my sexual attraction to them is really about my female predisposition to respond sexually to dominance, I weed out the assholes. I’m dating a great guy now who is extremely masculine and dominant, but is definitely not a jerk. He’s a nice guy and at the same time he’s not afraid to be “the man” in our relationship.

    I agree that the article Ted posted was kind of the stuff of nightmares. Particularly this paragraph:

    “That was my first casual encounter, but I had long looked at the Internet as some sort of mystical man factory. Picture conveyer belts of them trailing endlessly into the distance, hard and ready with dicks in hand. Ordering one up is sort of like picking a song on the jukebox, watching that electronic arm grab one from its slot and deliver it to you. The best part? There are always, always more where that came from.”

    I don’t know…this objectifying of men as if they only exist to serve her sexual needs kind of made me feel sick. If a man wrote something like this about women, he would be labeled a misogynist for sure.

    I must say, Anna, I’m sort of fascinated by you. You really seem to be a very unique woman. I’ve never known a woman like you. I enjoy reading your comments and getting your perspective.

    ~gwen


  136. Gwen writes,
    “@ Anna

    I don’t judge your choices or your FWB’s choices. I had a very intense sexual relationship with a married man before. I DID feel incredibly guilty about it and so did he and we eventually broke it off because of that. But he wasn’t getting sex from his wife and I wasn’t ready for a real relationship…so at the time it worked for us. He was somewhat of a sexual mentor to me…being 15 years older and much more experienced. We had a “50 Shades of Grey” type of sexual relationship and it was amazing. But sometimes I think about his wife and feel bad. I know what it feels like to be cheated on (my husband cheated on me and left me for his mistress). But it sounds like the two of you are getting what you need from each other. As long as you can be happy being the “other woman”, then I won’t judge you (not that you care what I think anyway!)”
    -

    May I ask what the point of cheating is exactly? There is simply no excuse for it, not even being deprived of sex. All one has to do is communicate their needs to their spouse and offer an ultimatum of change or divorce, or conversely, change or 2-way open marriage.

    Men who do this are often surprised to find that their wives are just as eager as they are to keep the marriage intact for the sake of the kids while at the same time having the freedom to pursue outside relationships.

    Although we live in a corrupt culture with skewed values where “no judgement” is the mantra of the day, my ethics and value system impels me to declare that I DO JUDGE cheaters, and rightly so.

    There simply is NO excuse to cheat.


  137. @Sexual Free Market,

    I won’t sit in judgment of a cheater because it would feel hypocritical considering I slept with one. You are certainly free to judge anyone you like, including me. What I did was wrong and I’m not going to pretend it wasn’t. As for “what is the point of cheating?” – I think people cheat for many reasons. Like you said, there is no excuse for it. I think most people cheat because they “want to have their cake and it eat it too” – they want the marriage/committed relationship AND they want sex with another partner. Again, there is no justifying that. I don’t know any woman who would agree to an open marriage but I’ll just take your word for it that there are wives who are “eager” to do so. I do agree with you that about “no judgment” being the mantra of the day…and that we live in a corrupt culture with skewed values. Sleeping with a married man definitely went against my personal value system. While I enjoyed the sex, I’m disappointed in myself for doing that and won’t be doing that again.

    ~gwen


  138. @gwen

    I assure you, I’m a very boring person. My friends disagree…but then, they’re my friends. Personally, I just try to remain as egalitarian as possible. Differences of opinion make us unique and offer up ways to solve problems that (hopefully) lead to a fair and moderate system that makes the majority of people content. Sigh…if only real life *actually* worked this way!

    I truly appreciate your kind words though, and I enjoy reading your perspective on topics as well. You seem discerning and intellectual without forcing your views. I love that. :)

    While I’m glad that you and your own FwB had what sounds like a fantastic time and were able to (presumably) end it on a good note, I’m very sorry to hear that your husband took off with his mistress. I would never want a man who would leave his wife because of me, that’s just horrible. There’s a distinct difference between enjoying someone’s company and/or giving them an out let for release…and being a homewrecker who creates turbulence and breaks hearts. You can guess which one I don’t approve of.

    Question: Since you were the “other woman” for a while yourself, did you object to your husband having a mistress? Or were you at least accepting of the idea, and only cared about it when he left?

    I realize this is a very personal question, so please don’t feel as though you must answer. I’m just curious because I’ll (most likely) never marry, so won’t have the chance (?)to be cheated on. If I’m completely rational about it though…I really don’t think I’d mind being in a relationship like that, so long as I’m still the “main woman”. Similar to Sister Wives, if you’ve ever watched that show.

    I was a bit of a late bloomer in relationships too, though I think by now you know why. Anyway, I am so grateful that, at nearly 22, I was able to share my virginity with my FwB. As you know, he is still my only…and I prefer it that way. It is a sadness that you weren’t able to, but it sounds like you understand why that happened now. Mistakes aren’t failures…they’re ways for us to experience, learn, make adjustments, and go forward better than we could before. It’s only when people refuse to even entertain the idea they were wrong (and blame everyone else) that we truly experience failure.


  139. Anna claims that there are “cultures that accept cheating” while in the US we are repressed by Puritan values that “hide it”. I’m a bit of a culture-phile myself so I asked her to name which specific cultures “accept cheating” and she still has yet to answer that.

    If those cultures “accepted cheating” then it would not be cheating, would it? I mean, you can cheat someone who is in full knowledge of what you are doing and who has given you their full permission to do so, can you?

    I’ve been to relationship, even sex, seminars wherein speakers claim that “the West is sexually repressed and monogamous while the East is free, open and polygamous.

    NONSENSE.

    I’ll tell you what the East largely is – very traditional and family oriented with a lot of arranged marriage of the monogamous kind. Sometimes poly-gynous but NOT poly-androus marriage.

    Cheating is not accepted as a norm. Rather, if the cheating spouse is the HUSBAND, a wife is often counseled to look the other way for the sake of the family while she literally DIES inside.

    NEVER is she counseled, “Whats sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose so go get yours too.”

    If the cheating spouse is the WIFE, she can be expected to be promptly divorced and cut off even from her children.

    Fortunately in the West marriage is largely seen as a voluntary agreement between two equal adults. Here in the so-called and falsely labelled “sexually repressed and monogamous West” what is sauce for the gander REALLY IS sauce for the goose too!

    This woman explains how after the 4 year mark of marriage she fell in love with another man but did not act on it. 7 years later her husband confessed to her that he had fallen in love with another woman but also did not act on it. He then suggested that they transition into an open marriage, but he ASSUMED it would be 1-way open meaning only open for him. She expressed that she would in fact welcome an open marriage, provided it was 2-way open. He was “surprised” that she would also want to have outside relationships. Why the surprise?

    Basically that is a huge fear and one of the major reasons why spineless, gutless men secretly deceive their wives and “cheat” instead of being open and honest.

    Anyway, over the course of 2 years they gradually worked out how they would transition from monogamy to poly and the wife actually was the first one to acquire a lover.

    Today all is well and the pair have built up an empire traveling and teaching other couples the joy of what they call “progressive love”.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/hakashamut

    Now THAT’S the way to “accept” non-monogamy. Not by slithering around like a snake deceiving one’s spouse.


  140. “Basically that is a huge fear and one of the major reasons why spineless, gutless men secretly deceive their wives and “cheat” instead of being open and honest.”

    Considering the 80/20 aspect of the pareto principle.. i can understand why the spineless, gutless, etc..

    “they would transition from monogamy to poly and the wife actually was the first one to acquire a lover.

    Colour me surprised with that revelation.

    Don’t get me wrong, i abhor cheating too and i think if you’re done with someone, let them go, free them to find happiness with someone who will care about them and not slink off into the shadows. That said, the only way i’d ever agree to an open 2 way like the one you described would be if my “wife” were to actively help wingman me new partners since women hold the advantage in acquiring new lovers by a factor of.. i dunno.. like 10 gazillion?


  141. “That said, the only way i’d ever agree to an open 2 way like the one you described would be if my “wife” were to actively help wingman me new partners since women hold the advantage in acquiring new lovers by a factor of.. i dunno.. like 10 gazillion?”

    As you can see in this photo….

    http://selfassource.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/rakhem_kenya0142after.jpg

    …thanks to so-called “female hypergamy” he is better looking than his wife and has no problem attracting women.


  142. I actually wouldn’t be surprised if Anna’s “fwb” is Indian or otherwise South Asian. He certainly sounds like it by what she writes of him.


  143. @ Sexual Free Market

    I don’t know what I’ve said to make you think that, but you are wrong. Like myself, he is American, Caucasian and of 3rd generation western European stock.

    How does one “sound” Indian or Asian, at any rate? I’m interested to know what generalizations influenced your opinion.


  144. @ Sexual Free Market

    As for the photo you’ve attached to a previous post, the one showing this speaker you admire…I assume that he is pictured with one of his lovers? Only because you state that “due to so-called female hypergamy he is better looking than his wife”. However, the female pictured with him is quite lovely and (in my opinion) his equal in looks.


  145. While I also find his wife attractive, I do not find her to be his equal in looks. Add to that her personality, which is quite bold and intense, compared to his more chilled out and mellow demeanor, and I think he is probably able to attract a wider variety and quantity of women to himself than she is men to herself.

    Although I enjoy her videos and find her humorous and entertaining, I could not picture myself in a relationship with someone who puts themselves “out there” with such intensity like she does. I imagine the men who are attracted to her must either be equally as bold and intense OR conversely, timid, low key and even perhaps lazy and thus in need of an electrical woman to inspire them to action.

    Either way, I can imagine a lot of people finding her intimidating, perhaps even annoying so.

    The reason I picked up the South Asian vibe from your descriptions of your “fwb” is because how you described the way he is dealing with his wife.


  146. @ Sexual Free Market

    Huh. Well, I must say we have very different preferences. Not only do I feel that his looks pale in comparison to hers, but I would also be more fond of her personality. In my relationship, *I’m* the introverted/laid back one…a quiet intellectual observer. My lover is equally as intelligent…but is quick to act/speak, loves being the center of attention and is never quiet. But this is good, because I think that we balance each other out.

    I’m curious about the South Asian traits. Are these men more likely to have “other women” or something?


  147. “I’m curious about the South Asian traits. Are these men more likely to have “other women” or something?”

    Not more likely. In fact the culture is so family and community oriented that even married couples don’t get sufficient time and space alone with each other, what to speak of the logistics needed to sneak around and hide an affair.

    However when South Asian men do manage to cheat, they do so slitheringly like a snake and the thought of being open and honest with their wives and offering her the oppurtunity to also acquire outside relationships while keeping the family in tact is something they would never consider.

    Again it goes back to your silly concept that somehow there are “cultures that accept cheating” somewhere out there.

    What you really meant to say is that there are cultures where MEN expect to be able to have other partners while they expect women NOT to.


  148. “…so then you’ll know what a real dry spell is.”

    I think different guys have different levels of sexual energy or “drive.” I’m a 43-yo virgin. When I was young person, I was short, ugly, poor, and perfectly comfortably with my solitary geeky pursuits and high standards, so none of the women in my league were ever attractive enough for me and, so far as SMV went, I couldn’t raise my own SMV to pull what I would have wanted. When I accepted this in my early 30s, it was the most liberating thing that’s ever happened to me since I dumped religion in my teens. It didn’t really bother me as much as your dry spell appears to have bothered you. I was happy with success in other areas of life. Good luck with the new chapter in your life and try not to dwell on past negatives!


  149. Funny. I’m in my early 20′s. I’ve always shown women care and respect. Never acted ‘alpha’ or cared about building up muscle or hitting on girls at clubs. Never acted like a stereotypical jock or asshole but I’ve never been out of a relationship for long, I just got out of a five year one and I’m seeing somebody else already and I couldn’t be more than happy. And why did all these girls like me? Because they saw I was a nice, genuine, kind, intelligent guy and they respected those values in me. Sure I met some other girls who wern’t attracted to me either but that’s life.

    Maybe instead of blaming all women for your behavior look at what you were actually doing or consider that maybe you just got unlucky because your personal experience certainly isn’t gospel.


  150. Fuck, I’m 28 years old, never kissed a girl.


  151. [...] in raw terms his 12 miserable years of involuntary celibacy as a nice guy beta in his epic post “Confessions of a Reformed InCel.” He expresses his suicidal rage at being lied to [...]


  152. @ Pete

    I’m glad you have zero difficulties. Count your blessings or your looks or your surroundings. Take your pick. You were gifted with something many others appear to lack to create interest in women. This isn’t about acting like “a stereotypical jock or asshole”.. it’s about behaving in a manner that is attractive to women. You’re a long termer, which i commend. You also don’t seem to have been for lack of options for relationships, being able to move from one to the next. If i had to hazzard a guess, i’d say you either ended the last relationship, or it was mutual. If she dumped you and you didn’t sweat it, then you knew you had the power to pick up another girl without issue. A power many guys don’t have due to starvation mentality and overly needy beta clingy mindset.

    You never faced the crippling effects of hundreds of rejections for no apparent reason, and no, not for being an asshole, but for being too nice. You never had to question why doing what was expected of you yielded no returns.. ever. Perhaps if you had, you wouldn’t easily wave your hand and dismiss the countless testimonials on this posts comment section of the same thing, over and over. My experience was not gospel.. but it apparently resonated with enough people to see that many of us were lied to wrt what women say they want vs. what they actually want. A generalization? Yes.. but a very recurring one in the life of many men.

    Congratulations for having avoided the issue. I’m sure that’s of comfort to the many good men who are still suffering and looking for answers.. and not finding them from women.


  153. A better Londo quote might have been “My shoes are too tight, but it does not matter, because I have forgotten how to dance.”


  154. If hating yourself is what you got from feminism, you obviously got some bad information. I know plenty of good men who live by feminist standards who don’t feel the need to feel hated. It’s about not treating women like shit, and if you do treat women like shit, then a feminist has every right to hate you. You’ve taken a school of thought, misunderstood it, and blamed it for your lack of ability to get laid. Maybe you’re just shitty with women’s cues. Maybe you just generally come off as creepy as shit (I’m going to assume so after this blog.) Maybe you took the worst aspects of feminism and attached them to the worst aspects of yourself. I am a feminist, and I love sex with feminist men. They are masculine, they are dominate, they are gentle, they are whoever they are as an individual. I am attracted to individuals. If you’ve had a 12 year dry spell, and all you’ve gotten from it are violent, suicidal tendencies, then maybe you really need to reevaluate some shit. Because assuming some much correlation between ability to get laid and self worth is not healthy. Then again maybe it’s actually indicative of your worth. Remove all of the feminist argument for a second and realize this- you just haven’t gotten laid. Maybe you really are just a self centered piece of shit that nobody wants to fuck.


  155. Hi Nat.

    I’m sure i could equally make assumptions on you based on your writing style and call you a feminist cunt who enjoys fucking her castrated mangina dogs and suffers from the feminist form of Tourette syndrome where you just can’t help from using the word creepy with wanton abandon.

    However, i don’t feel like engaging you on who you or I really am. Many of my female readers will consider your conclusions idiotic, and my current girlfriend who is as strong and independent as you would claim to be would most certainly disagree with your assertions of me.. perhaps because she is feminine and you look-a-like-a-man? Whoops.. i just did that assumption thing again. Funny how that works huh.

    So lets just discuss the one simple fact that you appear to discount not just my story, but the countless hundreds of other men, if not thousands of men who can equally relate to having tried to do the right thing and “be nice”, treat women with respect, dare i say reverence.. and got taken to the incel cleaners because they happened to be treating the *WRONG* type of woman.. you know, the user, the leech, the broken and damaged kind.. as people, while those women were choosing to sleep with those who treated them to a world of misogyny.

    What i try to teach my readers now is to calibrate what they seek to filter for the type of woman that will best suit it (or go their own way and live solely for themselves whether or not it includes women). I don’t tell men to be assholes or self centered pieces of shit, i tell them to become men who do their own thing, and cultivate towards getting a woman that best suits them, whether the low self esteem bimbo party blond for 1 night, or the girl who has shared interests and feminine attitude with great self esteem and self worth truly capable of a great reciprocal long term relationship. If you want the latter, don’t filter for the former unless you want trouble.

    I don’t know which “brand” of fucktard feminism you ascribe to.. and i personally don’t care. You may be one of those few mythical feminists that has a horn sprout from your head and call yourself Unicorn, and actually see men as people, don’t friendzone men, don’t view them as simply means to your own ends, and as sexual beings who just may have drives and desires that differ from your own. You may also be the type of woman who realizes redpill truths about attraction triggers, evolutionary concepts and the fact that men needing to establish romantic/sexual intentions first, all other aspects secondary in order to achieve a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, rather than the drivel of feminism that tells men to subdue their sexuality and curtail it because… rapey patriarchy god damn it look at me like a human and a friend and an intellectual and not as someone you want to have sex with… that’s the females job or didinchaknow?

    I never once treated my exwife poorly or acted like a self centered shit around her. I never treated the strippers i slept with like cattle. I never command, control or domineer my girlfriend or act like a self centered shit. And all of them chose to and wanted to fuck me thank you very much. So the pattern is very much that something changed from before (12 year incel) to after (getting laid like tile) which puts all your fucking concocted conclusions out of their misery.

    “If you’ve had a 12 year dry spell, and all you’ve gotten from it are violent, suicidal tendencies, then maybe you really need to reevaluate some shit.”
    I would be willing to bet a pretty penny that you would be dead had you suffered a length half that long. Your female privilege of having a vagina and suitors at beck and call simply because of said vagina blind you to the realities of many men, and you wouldn’t dream of writing “assuming some much correlation between ability to get laid and self worth is not healthy”. As your kind is so oft in saying, check your fucking solipsistic privilege at the door.

    I’m sorry. Perhaps we could have had a more civil conversation.. but you just had to start by using the word creepy. I guess i should have told you that the word Creepy is my *trigger warning*…


  156. @ Jon

    I love that Londo quote


  157. […] our pill.  It is not a male one and was never meant to be.  We will never inherently understand involuntary celibacy, the desire to pedestalize, or learning how to take back one’s masculinity and learning to […]


  158. […] For all men?  Tell that to these guys. […]


  159. “Your female privilege of having a vagina and suitors at beck and call simply because of said vagina blind you to the realities of many men,”

    And you are blind to the realities of many women if you think having a vagina means having suitors at beck and call.


  160. @ A New, Happy Murica

    Having a vagina obviously does not mean one has suitors lined up around the block. It does however mean that in attaining sex (especially in this distorted SMP where low SMV value women can realistically punch above their weight and succeed thus creating a deeper void of available women to men within their actual SMV range) is much easier for women than men. Men chase / Women choose. The biological double standard men have always had deal with. Even if women are ‘chasing’ after the same man, it is still done through the auspices of sending out IOI’s that the man must read and act upon. Rare is it that the ‘chasing’ woman actually pursues the man ‘as a man’.

    You can’t argue this point, the reality of it cannot be denied. Female privilege exists when it comes to attaining sex, selecting for sex, and punching above their weight.


  161. I am so sorry to hear that this happened to you. To not be validated as a feeling, sexual being sounds like some sort of divine punishment from an angry god…not something anyone should go through “just because”. It makes me happy to see that you know a nice woman now, though it will not make up for the pain you previously endured.

    I wish you much future happiness, and may your words help others in need of support.


  162. Because walking into a dive bar at closing time and propositioning the last standing dude and having a pretty good chance of leaving with him is a “privilege”.


  163. Because walking into a dive bar at closing time and propositioning the last standing dude and having a pretty good chance of leaving with him is a “privilege”.
    You’d have to be a pretty low SMV rated snaggle toothed brontosaurus of a woman to have that issue. No matter, take the exact same SMV rank male/female… and put them both in this dive bar. When it comes to the opportunity to end up sharing a fleeting moment of human physical intimate contact, which of the 2 has a good chance, and which has a SNOWBALLS CHANCE IN HELL of being desired?

    When one considers the difference between almost starving to death and being in a constant state of hunger/malnourishment VS. living off of high fat high calorie high sugar junk food..

    Only a woman could possibly be so blind as to the inequity of the issue and the resultant ‘privilege’ bestowed upon her simply for being female and having a vagina. The biological privilege of being the pursued.

    I have no clue if you are speaking personally of yourself and have projected yourself into the hypothetical as is often the case, what you fail to view in your solipsism is in today’s hypergamic hierarchy, the lower SMV rank women, by playing the slut card, open themselves up to having sex with men of higher rank they would never have had a chance with prior. The only men who can do the equivalent are the filthy rich who use their money to achieve a similar state. Most women have the capability of being a slut. Most men will never attain that much wealth or power to be able to punch higher than their own rank, and will usually be avoided by women of their own or 1-2 point lesser rank.. because they’re all looking up towards the top of the herd.

    In case hypergamy is a new concept to you.. an infographic may help:
    HYPERGAMY


  164. @ A New Happy America,

    I’m curious as to why you are using a dive bar as an example. If you look at regular men & women – they do not meet in dive bars. If you start with adolescence, you go through high school, college, first jobs, weekend get-togethers – these are the circumstances that men & women meet, and it is in these setups that women are exercising their choice of sleeping with or not sleeping with men.

    No one has suggested that women are obligated to have sex with men they are not attracted to. But, women are not entitled to their falsehoods – the idea that there are not enough “good” men is not borne out by reality. The absurd notion that one man must possess charm, affluence, & tenderness in equal measure and on a moment’s notice. Men know that one woman cannot meet all his demands, which is why even men in good relationships will look at porn, or they eat out, or they learn to clean up after themselves.

    In the U.S., the economy in all industries is increasingly moving to a “winner take all” approach that you see in sports and entertainment. The economy shredded the working class, and increasingly, white-collar middle class jobs, so that people at the top can get more. The sexual marketplace is moving in the same way. The first phase of feminism allowed women into job sectors that were previously off limits, while the newer waves of feminism told women that they can sexually pursue cads, and not experience any negative repercussion.

    Yet, what has women’s new-found freedoms delivered? A more equal society where men and women find their equal, and settle down to lead fulfilling lives? Nope, an era of increasing single-motherhood, where the new measure of being a man is how willing you are to raise some bastard.


  165. That chart was created as a joke, and it is.

    I don’t know what country you live in, but here in the States, assortive mating is the norm.

    There’s a whole helluva lot of equally matched average and below average looking couples walking around EVERYWHERE.

    Very rarely will you see a super hot man or super hot woman. And when you do, if he or she is coupled, its to another super hot person.

    The vast majority of people in this country are merely meh, ok-looking. And now that obesity is on a never ending rise, expect to see the majority of American couples ranking below that.


  166. Assortive mating from who’s perspective? Again, an 8-10 male will have his pick of women from 1-10, and will gladly indulge himself a pump and dump. 5-7 men have to work a bit more for some companionship, once they accept that the woman he is with has been passed around. Any male below a 5 will only get companionship once the woman has run out of options, and he accepts the fact that no matter how much he tries, he is not her first choice, or possibly 10th.


  167. No one is entitled to pussy.

    No one is entitled to friendship/relationships either.

    FUCK the women who think men should bend over and give them what they want.

    MGTOW all the way. Let society crumble. Let women be left without love and without a shoulder to cry on. When the foreign hordes attack and do whatever they please with the women, maybe then they will realize what true rape means – and will realize that it was men who were protecting them. Don’t join the military, you’re just going to be protecting this lousy civilization. If a draft comes – which it will – go to prison instead. I’d much rather be assraped in prison than assraped by feminism.


  168. 24 year old male from a western european country and boy do i relate althought in my case on top of the women situation i have this 7 year struggle to finish my graduation course ( which has prevented me to get a job which would make able to be compelitely independent from my parents) and in moments like these the fact that i dont have anybody to hold , touch , or hugg me which woud ease the furstration and the pain (also havent been in many years) makes that ” how long would i need to run the car in the garage before i pass out” the most recouring thought in my mind right now…..


  169. Don’t do it.
    You are worth more than that.


  170. […]  What about the men who are inundated with sex every minute of every day yet can’t get any themselves?  Are modern divorce rates a problem?  The “supermom” […]


  171. Damn.. Thank You Private Man. These powerful words are truly inspiring.


  172. Great post, however, I think you are lucky. You were married and were able to pull out of your funk. Not to downplay your experience, but as bad as you had it some of us had it much much worse. I am 37 and have been incel ever since I was 13. In high school, i did not exist to women, except when they were making fun of me. i remember one time some of my “friends” told me that some girl told them that she liked me and they mad me ask her out, which after many hours of anxiety i did. she loudly told me “fuck off nerd” and told all her friends. they spent the next 4 years taunting me. in college, was a different crowd but same thing. i tried asking a couple of girls out and the grimmace on their face said it all. i spent the next 4 years not even speaking to a female outside my family. I graduated with a high gpa and an engineering degree, as well as a good job. Incel at this point was driving me crazy. At the job I watched all the young people date and then marry. Of course, nothing for me. I contemplated suicide many times. I went to see a therapist and got prescribed meds which helday I was searching online for others in predicament, circa 2001. I stumbled across pua, therapists, dance lessons, drugs, dating services, etc, etc, etc. I dabbled with pua for about 5 years and during that time spent over 10000 on products, workshops, bootcamps, 1 on 1. I reckon that I approached over 10000 women during that time and all I got was a handful of short flings and ons, all of which ended up dumping me.


  173. @ Mike

    How would you describe yourself looks wise?


  174. I have a question, and I hope I’ve worded it correctly because I don’t want to shame anyone. I have no doubt that what other commenters here have said are absolutely true and realistically reflect their personal experiences with society and women. Their comments are thought provoking, sad and bitter…all of which are valid human emotions.

    I’ve just noticed that a fair amount of comments specify that they’ve been incel “since age 15″, “since I was 13″, “starting when I was 12″, etc. This is confusing to me because I thought InCel stood for Involuntarily Celibate aka wanting to have sex but unable to find a partner. I have a very high sex drive and began masturbating when I was 9…I’m no stranger to the needs of sexual release on a daily (or even hourly) basis. But I wouldn’t have accepted a sexual partner at age 12, even if one was forthcoming. It may be due to the 8 years of sexual abuse at the hands of my stepfather, but I always thought it was better to wait til age 17-19 for a first time.

    So, question: Are these men really talking about wanting full fledged sex at very young ages…or does InCel also cover things like kissing, hand holding, petting and the like? If it’s the former, that is fine by me, I’m not out to judge anyone. I’m just trying to figure this out without hurting any feelings.


  175. @ tarnsihedsophia:

    You raise a good question. Speaking for myself, I would start my incel period at 18, when I went off to college. My parents came from a “no dating” background, so there was no realistic chance for me to date in high school. I did not kiss a woman until I was 26.


  176. @ tarnsihedsophia:

    Incel doesn’t cover kissing & petting. Speaking for myself, it’s about my dick getting hard, warm and wet from a woman’s attention (be it hand, mouth or pussy) and cumming on or in her and having the satisfaction of being accepted by her as a sexual being.

    As for the age thing, that’s going to be different for everyone depending on their upbringing and their opportunities. I still remember the girls I would have nailed at age 14 if any of them were receptive at the time. Hell when you’re getting a hard-on several times an hour and the girls wear short-shorts and tight tops to school it’s pretty hard to resist the urge.


  177. […] Confessions Of An Involuntary Celibate […]


  178. Mike here again, did not finish my post above. My iphone sent before I finished. So continuing on, I did pua for about 5 years. Took workshops with RJ, mystery, RSD. Approached thousands of women, and could count on one hand the number of women I have had sex with. What is amazing is many of the men I have met in my PUA years, who were doctors, lawyers, engineers, who were forced to live incel, forced to run around like a clown, making a mockery of themselves, just to have a shot of getting laid, which almost never happened. I have never met a single unemployed badboy who was not rolling around in more poon than he could handle. PUA was a miserable failure for me, just like many others, and just served to increase my rage. How the hell is it possible for a guy who has done everything society told him to do, could live as an incel, while no job losers have more sex in a week than I will have in my entire life. You could not make this up.. If my taxes did not contribute in any way to feminism, I would not be so upset, and would just consider it bad luck. What pisses me off is that women KNOW they are doing this to men, they know the men they consider “undesireables” are paying for their socialism to fund their bastard children, and they call US entitled and tell us to suck it up.. Do I hate women? Yes, I do.. Was I born hating women? No…. I hate women because they have unapologetically cast me aside my entire life. They have rubbed in my face what a piece of shit I am, even though all I did was what they told me to do. They mocked me, turned the group against me, and laughed at my suffering, not once, twice, but countless times. How the hell am I not supposed to hate women after this. These women do not even consider that one day they may have sons, who might be considered “undesireable”.. Of course that only happens to other people, right?? amazing.

    So I am stuck with hookers, since it is my only option. I will NEVER do anything for women. I do not tip them at bars, I do not hold doors open. I do not move out of the way for them on the street. If I ever see a women getting assaulted, I will just walk by like nothing is happening and heaven help any woman who tries to confiscate my wealth or freedom for being an “undesireable”

    To answer Tim’s question. I am a fairly good looking guy, yet I am completely invisible, unless I am being mocked.


  179. @Ted
    I’m guessing your parents are Asian/Indian? Sorry about the “no dating allowed” man, that sounds rough. I can imagine incel at 18 easier than incel at 12, but that’s just me. Glad you have kissed a woman like you wanted. If you don’t mind me asking, have you gone any farther?

    @RabbitHole
    Okay, I get that. Like I said, I wasn’t judging, simply curious. I get what you mean about getting aroused every few minutes when a hot girl (or in my case, guy) walked by. I’m glad I’m physically female in situations like that…getting a hard clit in class is bad enough, much less getting a hard cock. At least onlookers can’t tell when I’m up. ;)

    Interesting that you’d actually want to have sex with them though. For myself, it was always nice/frustrating to imagine, but I’d never have taken any of those boys up on a realistic offer. Then again, that may be due to the fact I hated being touched. I shared my virginity at 22, but it took over a year to get to that point. I would probably have agreed with you more about the “sex at 14″ thing if past experiences were different.


  180. @Mike

    Sorry for what you’ve been through. You have my utmost sympathy. Women, especially in suburban and urban areas, seem to constantly be afflicted with “me, me, me” disease. They come into my store with their boyfriends and husbands acting like him buying a video game or D&D book is the end of the world. But you just know they made him sit around while they tried on clothes for 2 hours…

    Worse is when flouncey cheerleader types come in just to mess with my customers. Like they don’t have anything better to do than make fun of geeks and nerds? Sorry honey…get your spandex clad ass out of my store.

    Don’t blame you for not opening doors and such, if I had your experiences I wouldn’t either. Question though: If you’re an average looking guy, what do women mock you for? Obviously they’d know nothing about you…do they make things up, or just make fun of you for being average?


  181. @tarnsihedsophia,

    Yes, my parents are from India. I was born in NY – the first in my family born in the states. I should add that in addition to my less than stellar track record with women, my parents set a terrible example of how married couples are to behave. The yelled at each other constantly, and no profanity was off limits, no insults to one’s parents went unsaid. My mother constantly expressed disappointment in my dad for not providing her the lifestyle she felt she was entitled to. She called him a failure more than once. My dad believed that earning a paycheck meant he was infallible. I did see her get hit a couple of times. Add in the beatings I took from both of them, and you might imagine that I would approach dating with a naive view that if I treat a woman right, she will treat me right.

    I went off to college in the early 90′s. At my campus, there was a sizable South Asian population, but I was open to dating anyone. I might have been slightly averse to dating an Indian woman, because at that age, my impressions of Indian women were formed by the treatment my mother dished out. But most Indian women, at that time, did not seem interested in dating Indian men anyway. I was fairly light-skinned, so many women did not know I was Indian. And my name was not a giveaway either.

    I graduated with my virginity intact. But, I was actually in plenty of company. My best friend did not lose his until the summer after we graduated, and that was not with a girlfriend, but a summer fling.

    The last realistic chance I had with a woman was 6 years ago, but she was my assistant at work. She was a single mom, of Vietnamese descent, and 8 years younger than me. She would give me hugs, occasionally jump into my arms and wrap her legs around my waist. But she moved back to Washington state, due to family/financial matters. Things got so hectic before we left, due to her daughter falling ill, the night we set aside for each other never came to pass.

    Two weeks ago, I went out to dinner with a woman I had not seen in 10 years – my first kiss. She found me through a professional website. In those ten years, she went through AA, got married, had her husband die 2 years later. I knew all this before we saw each other, as I would Google her name from time to time. She was clearly damaged goods (as am I), but I guess beggars can’t be choosers. But I also wanted to see how she was doing, still that annoying white knight impulse. She still looked good. She’s black, although our complexions are the same. She is 5 years older than me. Within the first 5 minutes of me getting to her home, she tells me she has a boyfriend. I just drove 90 minutes for this? I have not called her back.


  182. Hi 3MM. John Rambo here, the guy who created the Boycott American Women blog.

    Anyway, I was a voluntary celibate Hindu monk for 4 years, between the ages of 21 to 25, and I can report that this was the happiest period of my life. I am 28 now.

    I can honestly report that I did not masturbate even once during those 4 years. That’s how dedicated I was to my cause.

    What I noticed is, when a man VOLUNTARY becomes celibate and renounces women completely, women pick up on that, they can sense it, and it drives them insane. I had many women purposely trying to harass me and make me fall down from my vows of celibacy.

    That is the fastest way to attract women. Just be totally aloof and don’t give a flying fuck about them. Also, if you refrain from masturbation, it increases your energy force, which also serves to attract women.

    I also was fully celibate without even masturbating for a year in middle school, it was the 7th grade for me. Some idiot told me “Our sperm is limited, so if you jack off too much you will run out”. I believed him and so I stopped wacking off.

    I noticed that during that year of not masturbating, I had a lot of hot, popular chicks all over me.

    But should we refrain from masturbation simply for the sake of attracting women or should we do it for a higher cause? I believe celibacy is impossible to maintain if one does not have some serious spiritual cause to follow. Maybe check out some of the Vedic classics, if you’d like, like the Bhagavad-Gita, the Mahabharata, the Ramayana, or the Puranas. Give it a read and see what you think.


  183. Hi Ted, I just noticed you comment above mine. So you are indian, were you born in India or were you born in the West?

    I spent 6 years of my life, between the ages of 23 to 28 living in India, and some of those years as a celibate Hindu monk.

    A very enriching experience that will change everything, how you see the world, what your values are, entirely.

    If you haven’t been to India, please check it out. It’s unlike any other place on earth, a truly unique place.


  184. @John Rambo,

    I was born in NY, but went to India to visit relatives. Have not been back since the late 90s. I probably have more family here now. While my family is Hindu, I’m not religious. Besides, the practice of Hinduism varies, not just from one region to the next, but even within families. I have read the Bhagavad-Gita. I will admit that when things get pretty dark, I do recall some useful passages. Not for advice on what to do, but it is nice to know that men thousands of years ago were often plagued with doubt about many of the issues that I sometimes face. One nice thing about the Gita is that it does not profess to be a book of answers.

    As for people who opt for celibacy as a religious course, I have known such men (and one woman). It is not always a choice supported by their families, because they lament the loss of grandchildren. For me, it was not a choice. As far as storing up some sort of energy, I can say that I look younger than my 40 years. I would probably look even younger if I followed my parents’ entreaties to shave my beard, but my late grandfather said it adds character. Adding character to a man who is invisible to women.

    While I am not religious, I am not hostile to religion. Probably one of the most eloquent dialogues I’ve heard about celibacy was in, of all things, a Hollywood film – Keeping the Faith. It was a rather sweet film about the friendship between a Jewish rabbi and a Catholic priest in NY. Problems arise when they both develop feelings for their mutual female friend. The rabbi, played by Ben Stiller, is worried about what his community will think that he chose a non-Jewish woman. The priest, played by Edward Norton, starts having fantasies about the woman, and wonders whether he can keep up his vow of celibacy.

    Norton asks his superior at the church how to handle this:

    Brian: I just keep thinking about what you said in the seminary, about how the life of a priest is hard. And if you can see yourself being happy doing anything else, you should do that.”

    Father Havel: “[Chuckling] Well, that was my recruitment pitch, which is not bad when you’re starting out because it makes you feel like, like a Marine! The truth is, you can never tell yourself there’s only one thing you could be. If you are a priest, or if you marry a woman, it’s the same challenge. You cannot make a real commitment unless you accept that it’s a choice that you keep making again and again and again. [Sighs] Ha, I’ve been a priest over 40 years. And I fell in love at least once every decade.”

    He adds later that no one asks that Dalai Lama these questions – probably because Eastern faiths generally do not address sexual matters to the degree that the three Abrahamic faiths do.


  185. […] are chaste Christian men practicing abstinence, or secular men who are forced into the life of an Incel, or married men whose wives are denying them their conjugal rights, are suffering serious health […]


  186. About 20 percent of all 15 year olds have lost their virginity. About 50 percent of 17 year olds. Most men had lost their virginity at 20. So stop complaining, you’re completely normal.


  187. I found your blog a few weeks ago as I was looking for answers about why I could not get over my gf’s sexual past, one that I consider excessive (seven, including some ONSs and two “relationships” with guys who already had a gf, so she allowed herself to be ‘the other one’). I was questioning my principles -the same ones you grew up with- and I was even feeling bad for openly questioning her intelligence and dignity since she truly has many qualities other than her vagina. She uses the same “it was only sex”, “I did it because I was so lonely”, and “you’re such a macho” BS that you accurately mention in many of your entries. It seems like “modern” women learn the same excuses to become sluts and feel proud of it.

    I’ve been very emotional lately because I know I will have to let her go and I had serious plans for us two. I can’t live with myself thinking that the girl I love has freely been penetrated by guys who only saw her as a hole (or holes *sigh*) where they could stick their tool into. The more I talk to her about this, the more defensive she gets and the more angry I become. Reading this post literally brought tears to my eyes. I thank you for posing such a personal background. I see myself in your story and that touches many fibers inside.

    I don’t know if I want to become or at least act as an Alpha, even though I do believe that feminist women should be used as the whores they want to be. What I do know after reading your blog for weeks is that I deserve better than a leftover piece of ass. It hurts to consider my girl such a thing, but I can’t focus on her qualities when I constantly picture her spreading her legs and moaning while some smart-ass drilled her like an animal.

    Insecurity? Doubt it. She cries uncontrollably whenever I tell her that our thing needs to end.Sex is great, so that is not the issue either as some feminazis would quickly try to point out. How about dignity?

    Keep up the great work!


  188. @Daniel

    How many sexual partners have you had? If she has had 7 but she’s your only one…yeah, you have very different values. But if each of you had 7, it doesn’t seem like a big deal (at least to me). For example, my FwB is the only guy I’ve ever been with whereas he has around 12. But I recognize that he is over a decade older than me, and as we are exclusive for now I have no problem overlooking his number.


  189. @Sophia

    I’ve had two and both were LTRs. The issue is not her number per se, but the reasons behind it. I know each person is free to do whatever they want with their body, but I can’t stand the lame arguments that many women give to justify their past decisions and acts when they realize that they’re coming back to haunt them. So far she has told me that she felt lonely, that she was looking for love, that she felt used, that she felt unattractive, and other similar excuses that make her look like a victim. Some other times she gets very defensive and she says that women have the same rights as men and that they shouldn’t be judged, that I’m a macho, that I lack self-esteem, and all the same BS that I’ve heard and read everywhere countless times.

    It hurts to know that she felt into the same trap that most western women fall nowadays. It hurts because she is beautiful and shy, because she is educated and smart, because she is super nice and kind. It hurts because she is a Beta!

    I would consider trying to overlook her past, but I can’t stand her attitude towards it. She still thinks that some of those guys had good intentions with her, even the two who already had a girlfriend and where USING her sexually on the side. She still tells me that her past is not mine and therefore should not affect me in any way.

    The thing is that women like her give guys like me lectures about why we are wrong, but at the same time they’re the ones trying to settle down with us!! If she feels like I offend her every time I bring up the subject, if she thinks I’m a misogynist, a closed-minded macho, why then is she trying to convince me that we have a future together? I know you know the answer as most people who visit this blog. She knows I won’t be fooling around, she knows I will more than likely be a good spouse and father, she knows she can expect a stable life by my side. Hers is a hypocritical attitude and it eats me inside.

    To top it all off, she was the one who shared her past with me, even when I never asked her about it. Some will say that she was brave and honest and that I should appreciate her for doing that (I’ve read that in many forums). It was a very stupid call if you ask me, especially because she was smiling while she told me, like she was trying to impress me or something.

    It’s a shame. I truly love her, but I can’t and I don’t want to get over her past. I feel like she’s telling me: “OK, I think I’m done letting guys f*ck the sh*t out of me. Now I’d like you to love me for what I am.” She’s actually used those last few words. The problem is that now I see her as a slut who is trying to act like a lady.


  190. @Daniel

    That sounds like she doesn’t value sex the same way you do…it’s like she’s having it for all the wrong reasons. I can accept that my FwB had both ONS and LTRs, and he accepts that I don’t want that. Was he a slut? Well, yes, he was. The difference is that he has never painted himself as a victim…he knew what he was getting into in these situations, and he also smiles when he shares these past experiences with me. I’m not offended, and hearing about his past exploits often gives me ideas of things for us to try. Is it possible that this is what your gf was trying to do?

    If not, and you truly think that she’s confusing her self esteem with her number of partners, then it would seem to me that you don’t match up. I’d try this: Ask her if she’s perfectly fine with you going out and having 5 ONS to “even the scales”. She will probably say no…in which case I think you already know she is using double standards on sexuality.


  191. @ Tarnished

    Jesus h Christ.. you stole my idea mere moments before I launched my next post on Sluts.

    Now I can’t claim full credit for the idea of evening the scales. You best me the punch :P

    gorammit


  192. @M3

    I’m sorry. ;)

    It makes sense though. My guy isn’t upset I’m his only one…I’m not upset about his 12 previous partners.

    I really don’t like it when men/women use sex like a tool, a self esteem booster, or shame their significant other for their number. If it was all consensual and you simply enjoy sex…fine. I’m cool with that.

    But if you need to have a different excuse for every lay you’ve had? No, now you’re being immature and stupid. Sex is fun, but it is not a goddamn toy.


  193. Thanks for the suggestion to the both of you. I know she won’t probably accept it, but it doesn’t matter because I already made up my mind about letting her go.

    @Sophia, I agree with you. Nobody should use sex as an excuse for anything. The fact that she tries to somehow justify some of the things she did (very irresponsible and health-risky!) is part of my anger. I’d rather hear her say “yes, I was stupid for letting myself be used in such unreasonable ways” than keep listening to her “tragic” stories.It wouldn’t change my decision, but at least I’d know that she accepts her previous carefree sexual urges.

    It’s sad that women with so many talents try sex as the means to feel attractive. If they allow themselves to be treated as objects, their complains about failed “relationships” is nothing less than stupid.

    I hope that she finds someone who doesn’t care about her past and who honestly loves her. I truly care for her. :/


  194. […] Dear TS, This woman is treating you like a beta provider, who she can seek for comfort and material wealth. When it comes to sex, she will never, or rarely let you touch her womb, especially if she is ovulating, because she will seek an alpha instead. She broke up with you because you could not fufill your beta provider role, and is of no further use to her. This is called hypergamy, read about it here Hypergamy | While there are tons of redpill/men's rights/PUA literature on the internet, all I ask of you is this. Do not put a ****y on a pedestal. Be more HONEST with women. While she was 99% certified crazy and wrong, your 1% came from treating her more nicely than usual, leading her to see you as a beta provider. What you should do next is start knowing more people, guys and girls, broaden your social circle. If you have a girl you like, be very direct, don't treat her extra nice, TELL her to go out with you, DON'T ask. She will see you as a leader and an alpha. All you have to do from then on is to take the lead. Hope you follow this advice, and not be an involutary celibrate. See this: Confessions of a Reformed InCel | M3 […]


  195. I felt like I could relate to what you were saying about being valued as a human being and confidence being eroded. Today is day 5206 – it may be higher since I can’t actually remember. I think I have something to learn from your advice, even though I am a woman.
    (ignore my email name I’m not married. Just something I thought was cute).


  196. I laughed, I cried, I reflected. And now I walk into the mist of the new morning-to conquer. Epic brofist.


  197. Dear sir, you are indeed a genius.

    I think you might have overreacted a little in the anger and bitterness torwards women, but I cannot say you are wrong, quite the contrary, actually.

    I am currently 22 years old and I came to your own very conclusions quite recently.

    The truth is : about 83,25% of women are complete garbage, 12,75% are hardly “recyclabe” and a mere 5% of women are worth the pain and hardships.

    Awesome post, sir.


  198. Thank you for this post! I know it must not have been easy to write. I am not a young guy (early 40′s), but I made a lot of the same mistakes that you did when I was younger (being too nice, too sensitive, etc.), and as a result usually ended up going home alone while the dumb jerks banged all the hot girls. As with you, I still seethe that I wasted so many prime years of my life without either sex or companionship. But as you say, we can only move on from here. I have also gone back to the gym and built up a strong mental sense of self. I figure if we can (through the MGTOW movement) spare some younger guys the mistakes that we made, at least that will be something.


  199. […] Mann berichtet über den Unterschied in seinen Erfolgen bei Frauen bevor er “Game” […]


  200. Knowing full well the torture that women collectively inflict upon men by forcing celibacy upon them, how can anyone possibly say that rape is not justified? In fact, I would venture to say that it is not only justified, but completely moral. Seriously, fuck women and their soulless nature.


  201. More proof that even marriage does not end a woman’s shit tests. I grew up in NY, but now live in Chicago. I have a cousin back in NY who loves coming out here for a weekend to hang out. I was like a big brother to him when we were growing up. He likes leaving his troubles behind for just a day or two, and enjoy all this city has to offer. Nothing too wild – a steakhouse, a comedy show, or a ball game. He is a successful tax attorney, so he makes good bank.

    A couple of years ago, he brought his girlfriend, who would later be his wife. I thought she was nice, pleasant – although a bit superficial. She took more interest in the Kardashians that I thought real people should. Her job was in some aspect of interior design – meaning she comes up with ways for people with too much money to spend it on overpriced furnishings.

    Then they got married. I went to their big, lavish wedding in NY. After their marriage, she pretty much wanted nothing to do with anyone from his side of the family. She showed up for the interview, got the job, and now is coasting. Even last Christmas, when I was in NY, she could not meet us for a get together at a museum, saying she was “too busy”. My cousin did not even bother coming up with a plausible excuse for her. He just said, “I don’t know” as he met us on the Upper East Side.

    I guess she got bored with her interior design job, so she is expecting their first baby. My cousin was hoping to come out to Chicago for another weekend this fall, but his wife kept coming up with reasons why he could not. Given that he is the sole breadwinner, and he makes plenty of bread, you would think that would give him a say in how he spends just one weekend with his cousin. Nope.

    My cousin is a good guy. Kinda quiet. He deserves better than to be ordered around by a spoiled brat of a wife. Sadly, the treatment he received at the hands of his mother was not much better – a spoiled woman who never worked a day in her life, yet demanded material comfort beyond her pharmacist husband’s salary. My cousin just expects that this is how women behave.


  202. M3, I admire your courage for the Incel article. I even printed that article it because describes very well how I feel.
    I am 33 years old, but for me was pitch black. No girl/woman ever wanted me. I was rejected by beautiful women, by plain women and by ugly women.

    I had my first kiss and I had lost the virginity only at 32 years old with an escort, because I thought “it would be too bad for me to never kiss a woman and to die virgin”.

    My path in life is to shun women. I am too full of frustration, my heart is full of bitterness. I don’t feel human.

    I wish you good luck in helping others. I will also help other men to know about the game because I don’t want anybody to go thru my hell.


  203. “In fact, you could call this my own personal rape. I’m sure women will be up in arms for me calling it that, but what is the criteria for it? I feel shame. I am unable to talk about it with others. I will invariably be blamed for the outcome i suffered because of the way *I* acted. Being beta was ‘wearing a miniskirt’. Acting like a NiceGuy was ‘being overly flirtatious’. Respecting women and pedestalizing them was going up to a guys room at 2am for a late night coffee.

    I deserved it for being unattractive. You deserved it for being too attractive. We both got fucked and not in the way we wanted it.”

    As a 25 year old male virgin I saw an almost identical reflection of myself within this article. Always the so called “nicer guy” never getting the social validation despite playing by society’s so called “rules”.

    Its early in the morning and I can’t quite focus as I literally have to be up in 5 hours for another long day of work (I’m a software engineer making over $80,000… trust me my friends who make minimum wage have had more sex in a week than I’ve ever had my whole life) but after having just gone on my first date with a girl I was literally trying to ask out for months(and of course given the LJBF treatment at the end of the 8 month ordeal) I’ve suddenly become frustrated for the first time in my life about my complete and utter lack of a human relationship with a woman.

    I’m not entirely sure why I’m even typing this out at 4am in the morning but I realized that I’m just a beta-male(blue pill taker) in denial and I need to seriously wake the F&@# UP!

    I know this took a serious amount of guts on your own part but I fully understand your argument and premise… its almost unfathomable to articulate just what exactly it means to have experienced no form of human sexual/fulfilling intimate relationship on a deep emotional level over the course of my entire life.

    Never before have I encountered the direct comparison to what mainstream media promotes as “rape” to that of the plight of the older male virgin. Neither of us (the female victim of physical rape nor the male who has been raped mentally) are really allowed to speak our voice lest our words fall unto the ears of the stereotypical citizen who simply responds with much of what you mentioned in your article and to which I have quoted above in my response. I’ve realized that I’ve been delusional all of my life and like those “sluts who you know totally had it coming by wearing those six inch red pumps” I was just a young fool who “you know should have just stopped putting pussy on a pedestal” as I recall faces of my so called “friends” spewing food from their mouths in the densely packed college cafeterias on a Sunday morning as they endlessly bragged about which freshman girl they “juiced” the night before.

    I’ve completely had it with all the pointless banter of “hey I’m sure you’ll make some girl happy one day” to my favorite “Just you know… act more confident and be yourself”.

    The road to self improvement and the realization of my own self esteem will be arduous. There are no shortcuts and it will take every fiber of muscle and every single last brain cell within my body to pull it off but if I don’t want to extend my “lost years” into my late twenties I had better get off my ass; kick my bad habits to the side and take that red pill right now.

    Thank you for this post

    (To anyone reading this… no I will not respond to your questions/concerns and no I do not care if you think I am wrong and or being rude for making this decision. I’m too busy working to improve my life. Lets all get the fuck out from in front of our monitors and do something active to improve the state of our conditions for no amount of internet crying and or pity seeking will remove the tarnish that has manifested itself within our sexless unemotional socially detached lives so far)


  204. Honestly loved every single piece of this article, and really hammered it home for me. Thank you for publishing this.


  205. […] Of: Confessions of a Reformed InCel is the story of M3 working ever harder to win by “the rules” before figuring out the […]


  206. I think the point about confidence coming from the experience of success rather than “from within” is something everyone eventually realizes…..but man, it still riles me up whenever I think about how pervasive the idea that you can “think yourself confident” is.
    I don’t think as much that you or I were gullible in believing such shit, but rather that most everyone else kind of glosses over the popular view of things and doesn’t really connect it with their behavior in practice or even intellectually. It was always kind of surprising to me the way my more “bad boy” friends just did what needed to be done to meet their objective, with very little or no concern of any kind of ideals. For example: if they wanted to get laid, they just trolled Craigslist until they found someone to fuck them…or went to a bar….done. Such behavior would never have suited my idealistic, sweet, romantic view of things, and to tell you the truth…it still doesn’t. You sir, like me, are an idealist.
    It sounds as if you are a few years younger than myself and that you have discovered the best (and only) way to move past your anger and bitterness is to simply move past it….forget about it and move on, being happy with yourself and not so much concerning yourself with the past or the opinions of others. Not in an angry “Fuck you world” way, but a contented, “happy with yourself, flaws included” kind of way. I can’t totally forget and discount my incel years and Im sure they’ve left some scars, but dwelling on them does me no good (just thinking about it for more than a few minutes brings it all back believe me!) and with relationships come a whole new set of problems.
    Best of luck to you Sir.


  207. Just had to say something. This is probably the best post i have ever read. That part about feeling somewhat like a rape victim (and it was emotional rape)… to feel that something was stole from you, your lifetime, your happiness, your self-esteem… and somehow that was all YOUR fault… i know EXACTLY how that feels.

    Best post ever, dude! Can´t praise you enough!…


  208. You have to stop putting the pussy on a pedestal bro. If they wanted respect they would act like someone you respect. Treat em mean, and don’t expect any more in return – it’s the way things work now.


  209. I’m laughing because of how bad at life you really are.

    You couldn’t think for yourself. This is your crime, not anything else. Who the fuck would want to be in a relationship with somebody so stupid? Everyone can sense that. It’s a fucking turn off.

    YOU COULD NOT THINK FOR YOURSELF FOR 12 WHOLE YEARS.

    You fucked up really hard and you’re blaming all sorts of things in different directions.

    The rest of you men, the ones who agree with this dude? You’re all fucked because he’s obviously in a pit he dug himself.


  210. @SLC

    Dude, come on. These guys are hurting, no need for harshness. Besides, who are you to cast such a stone? Have you never been stuck in a rut or felt hopeless about something? It *can* be difficult to break out of one, especially if parts of society are telling you to solve your issues by doing X when you need to do Y (or at least you need to do Y to appeal to the most common denominator).

    Seriously, let up or provide actual criticism. Don’t just be a jerk to someone else’s pain.


  211. That was a good, heartfelt post, Sir…


  212. 2 questions. First, in the 12 years of being an incel, when did you begin to believe that you were never going to be loved for the nice qualities about you? And second, at which point did you begin to fully distrust/dislike women and see them as liars and manipulators?


  213. Kevin

    During my entire 12 year run, it never registered that i would never be loved for my ‘nice’ qualities. It wasn’t until after i swallowed the redpill and fully understood/appreciated the dynamics of attraction/hypergamy that i realized ‘nice’ qualities are ‘nice to have’.. but without attraction or desire, those ‘nice’ traits are meaningless to a woman. They ‘want’ nice, but only from men they are attracted to. Nice qualities from the unattractive have no value.

    The second point, was my initial anger stage. When i first fell into the sphere and read with horror about Briffault’s law, hypergamy and going through blog after blog, it sickened me thinking all the sugar and spice i worshiped and adored where capable of such behavior. But that didn’t last too long either. About 6 months of fading resentment, before i accepted it is human nature, female nature, it evolved the way it did and there is nothing to hate about it. We have competing goals and interests.

    I don’t distrust them, i learned how to read them, decipher them, understand them, and have learned how to filter and weed the bad ones out. I don’t dislike women, i love them, especially cute feminine ones. I don’t see them as liars and manipulators anymore so than men can be. I could dislike them as much as myself for getting aroused looking at other women, or underage women. Again it comes down to having evolved to serve their own biological interests and imperative. The alpha’s hold power over women because the alpha is in demand. The women hold the power over the rest of men because the women are in demand. The one with power has more control over who’s interests are served.

    I’ve had my catharsis, put in the work and effort, stopped fighting how i thought the world should work, how feminists told me the world should work.. the lie of gender constructs, men and women as pure equals, sins of patriarchy, getting in touch with my feminine side, a complete lack of understanding how sexual attraction works.. and adapted to how the world actually works. I navigate it easily now, rather than trying to ice skate uphill. No more feminist delusions. No more trying to make square pegs fit into round holes. No more rationalizing the irrational. Simple biology and understanding evolution. And life has gotten better for it.


  214. The a guy who holds it against a girl for having been with a lot of guys in the past is like a girl holding it against a guy for being shitty in bed because he hasn’t been with ENOUGH women in the past. Reading this thread we’re all well aware how and why a guy can go for so much of his life without getting laid and therefore without developing any sexual skill. Shouldn’t a girl understand the circumstances of his history and see that he’s ready and willing to learn with her NOW? Or should he be broken up with immediately because he can’t eat pu**y and he bores the poor girl to tears every time they have sex?
    I get that it can make a guy feel insignificant to think that he’s just another in a long line of dudes a girl has been with, but guess what, it can make a decent, quality woman feel insignificant as well if she knows a guy has generally been with a lot of women. It makes him seem like he just uses a lot of girls for sex. Quality women resent that kind of thing. The only difference is that I’ve never heard of a woman not being able to get the image out of her head of a guy being with a lot of other woman even if it did bother her. Women aren’t that weak. No, I take that back. I’ve heard of women who can’t stand the thought of their bf’s watching porn or even looking at Maxim magazine and trying to outright forbid him from doing so. It’s childish and insecure.


  215. If anyone needed more convincing reasons why the double standard exists…

    http://www.alternet.org/im-fat-40-and-single-and-ive-been-getting-laid-crazy

    And from a woman.. a good summation of why you should be a dick over being ‘nice’
    http://www.alternet.org/culture/12-reasons-holes-win-and-you-dont


  216. So, reading this it was like reading my story, adlist the first half of it. I’m in my mid 20s, had 1 “girlfriend” 3 years ago, haven’t had sex since or before. Been in a depression for over a decade because of it. I’ve been changing my personality for the last 2 years – started with body language and PUA, added a lot of psyhology on top of that. But i only discovered redpill a few months ago and it’s really helping me be ok with myself, but it’s also making me what I was always afraid to become: angry, cynical, untrusting of women, revengeful and filled with hate. As an extreme extrovert I always wanted to help people, work for the community.

    But no more of that. My needs are now front and center. I’m finally ok with being alone.


  217. “My needs are now front and center. I’m finally ok with being alone.”

    There’s a frontal contradiction.


  218. “There’s a frontal contradiction.”

    My guess is he isn’t talking about immediate sexual needs. This sounds more like MGTOW and taking women of the pursuit pedestal and focusing on himself and his own interests. At least that’s how i read it..

    If sexual needs are high on the priority list, i can see how that statement produces an equation divided by zero.


  219. @YOHAMI M3 got it right.


  220. @rpta

    That’s great, man. Putting yourself first and foremost is something a lot of us need to learn to do. Congratulations on doing so!


  221. rpta, good then, and good luck!


  222. […] describing the life of the average Game-less schlub.  The three best examples of this I know are Confessions of a Reformed Incel by M3, The Life of a Beta by Free Northerner, Obsidian’s […]


  223. […] enjoy the ride. Top men clean up while average and lesser men are left out in the parched desert of involuntary celibacy with only their discouraging thirst for love and sex to keep them […]


  224. My late teens and all of my 20s were a complete and utter waste. After listening to the same crap you listened to, I realized that if something didn’t change I would die a virgin. I started lifing weights, bought a Corvette and began treating women like shit. To my utter amazement, I started to get attention from women and from one in particular who I lost my virginity to and who also became my wife. While I’ve been happily married for many years and now have grown children, I sure do wish that I had known about the Red Pill in my youth. It would have saved me a decade and a half of despair and utter desolation.


  225. […] ‘Confessions of a Reformed InCel’ […]


  226. The volume of theoretical bs in this conversation. So much theory. So much bs.


  227. From a little boy to about 22 girls of all ages threw themselves at me. I was not tall. I was not rich. My face was above average but by body was too thin. One day, *poof* it was gone and nothing changed (attitude/looks).

    I’m convinced mojo is real. If you have mojo you can be whatever and be a king with women. More men should study what that aura is and try to create it in a mystical/ancient way.


  228. OP I love you man.

    I have never been able to relate to someone so well in my entire life. I have been conditioned with blue pill ideology from the get go. My entire life I have treated women as the fairer sex and I always put women right next to the gods. I could never reconcile how women that I loved deeply could reject me so harshly for guys who were “Assholes” (Women are the real assholes.) whom would pump n dump. I have always been treated bad for being the natural beta, always wanting to please. I have felt unloved for most of my life also thinking about suicide because a world without love wasn’t one for me. I once picked up PUA tactics to become a better beta. I ended up attracting the girl I fancied ONLY to be crushed by her once I showed how unconditional my love was for her. it would take me a very long time to be able to handle the taste of the red pill. Surely but slowly it happened. When I read your story I could remember the past “me” and see how much I have grown since. While I don’t have much game I can see women treating me with dignity as I have greatly improved my body. I am going my own way brother.

    Thanks for remaining strong and being a real man to look up to.


  229. […] But I haven’t had a date in…years? […]



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