Is it Fair?

January 21, 2013


Don’t shoot me, i’m just the messenger…

So i had a back and forth comment session with my friend Audi (the audacious amateur blogger) and it something occurred to me.

I’m conflicted.

See, i’ll share a little secret. I like her (shhhhh)

At it’s core lies this problem. She’s worried about spherian mentality about “The Wall” and “The Number” and natural consequences of actions. Part of my latent beta wants to don the suit of plate mail, climb the white horse and protect her as my conditioning under the the rules of GirlWorld commands me to. And another part of me, that itchy burning area of my rectum where the RedPill currently resides is telling me fuck it.. actions have consequences, take it like a man. Derrrrp.

This is a case of going before the judge and pleading that you didn’t know that pissing into the town square water fountain was a crime because there were no warning signs posted.. to which the judge harrumphs “IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NO EXCUSE” and slams the gavel down and chucks a hefty leather-bound book at you.

She has/had the same problem i did some 18 years ago… it’s called Naivete.


adjective \nä-ˈēv, nī-\

1: marked by unaffected simplicity :artlessingenuous
2a: deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment; especially:credulous
b : not previously subjected to experimentation or a particular experimental situation <made the test with naive rats>;

Is it harsh to be judged and convicted for things done when you were simply following what you thought was the properly laid out doctrine to follow? Yes, yes it is. Especially if the rules you followed were crafted by a society that began an experiment to see if human behavior was indeed a social construct through conditioning and behavioral modification instead of something deeper and more innate… primal. And if it were the latter that was found to be the truth, could leeway be given to avoid the consequences of those actions done under sincere misguidance?

It’s something i wrestle with, because as a decent guy and human being, i wouldn’t want to see what i feel is an obvious good but naive kid who simply followed the path that was allowed for by this current society (a society i do wish to see at the bottom of Davey Jones locker btw) having to accept the consequences and punishment of our now evolved and well informed spherian understanding of a woman’s N and the cruelty of The Wall.

Yet one need only read this (which you probably already have) to realize that i myself, and untold countless millions of others have indeed already paid the loftiest price for being naive. The judges are still at it to this very day with the public trials of NiceGuys™ in the street, listening to the mobs yelling for the Jezebel executioner to throw the level and pull the floor out from under the condemned for their naive nature.

Is it fair that one side is made to suffer full consequences while the other gets a reprieve solely due to gender and timing?

A man’s naivete will hinder him through his prime sexual, formative years. His naivete of female attraction triggers, about the feminine imperative and lies about the time honored path towards a relationship will prevent him from attaining one of any meaning. And he will be punished for it until he is beaten and whipped long enough to see the game for what it is and then either learn about how to solve it or go on his merry way to leave the game altogether and go his own way.. but the PRICE.. the CONVICTION.. the PUNISHMENT will already have been meted out. Anything they do to change themselves for the better will only be after absorbing the harsh consequences of their naive actions. They all must pay their dues. Some more than others, and some are still paying without end in sight.

For men, it is a trial by fire right from the word go. Some pass with flying colors, many will suffer but triumph over time, many will get life, and a few will get the death penalty.


A woman’s naivete will not hinder her when she is at her fertile and sexual peak, rather it will empower her and embolden her to go on a power trip of biblical proportions. The higher her sex rank, the more reckless she can be. Here she will be naive about her own sexuality and how it is viewed by men, how her number of partners and how much fun she is having will be viewed by future men. Her naivete carries no apparent penalties during her sexual peak even when she is warned as such by the elders who knew better, or by those who feel the tugs of evolutionary programming within them not yet over-ridden by feminist reprogramming.. in vocalizing their disapproval towards slutty behavior. “Having fun” just feels too damn good to be considered a hindrance much less a penalty. A woman’s naivete is like a building being supported by a column you continue to weaken past it’s ability to carry the load, yet it still stands. This is called living on ‘borrowed time’. Much like the credit card from hell, you don’t pay now, you pay later.

For women there is no trial by fire. For women, the trial comes without warning even tho it laid in plain site walking around her. The old women she herself made fun of in her youth for being wrinkled and haggard… not contemplating as one would in chess, 15 moves ahead. That old woman IS your future. You’re trial is coming. It will be abrupt and it will be swift. That is the price of evading the long unending trial by fire men face.

The question i hear often from women about the wall and aging is “IS IT FAIR?”. They will get into depression thinking about how unfair it is that men get better with age as women go downhill. They complain about us bastard visual men and how they will obviously be traded in for a younger model when they get older, which is more myth and legend than reality at best, a  severe case of projection at worst. What they fail to consider is the sloped trajectory of the two sexes peak power when it wasn’t an issue of fairness back then. Is it fair that most guys are considered ‘scrubs’ or ‘boys’ or ‘ juvenile’ by their female peers and passed over for TheRealMan™?


No woman is questioning the fairness of it when they hold all the aces and are playing the field with the ruthless determination hypergamy demands of them. Not one woman will be asking if it’s seen as fair that the lonely introvert male who already has enough issues even talking to anyone about subjects that don’t really matter to him also feels completely invisible to woman who crave high extroverted tendencies of charm, wit, charisma and crowd dominance. Who feel so isolated seeing women ignore him for who he is on the inside in favor of the muscle bound football star or the devilishly handsome and ruggedly good looking movie stars of the moment.

He will be told “accept it”, “hypergamy is natural, it’s not wrong, it’s evolutionary” and “don’t whine about it being unfair, shape up or ship out, no one is entitled to a relationship/girlfriend/sex”. Is that fair when I don’t see women tolerating these bit’s of advice when the tables turn and it’s re-framed to the male’s position of power once women have lost their’s.

Is it fair that there is a running joke on the internet that looks like this?

How fair is that?

How fair is that?

Is it fair that at the height of a woman’s power, her teens and early 20’s, most young and inexperienced men have to contend with that monstrous board of dials above without an instruction manual the likes of which Game provides? Is it fair that during a period where woman need only not stuff their faces (and even today that’s not a real requirement with many men having lowered their standards out of desperation) and bat their eyelashes to get top quality men to chase them that guys have to be masters of looking good, acting good, behaving good, earning good, and so on… and even then still getting short shrift unless their game is tighter that rare mythical unicorn of legend… a virgin? No. We are simply told that this is the way it is and arguing about it is foolish, to which i agree. That’s why the sphere exists today. You don’t get to a point of needing supply without demand.

The sphere teaches. It teaches both men and women. It teaches men about how to turn all those dials and push those buttons. Too wake them up from their slumber and their world of lies. It also does the same for women, showing them the lies they’ve been peddled by feminism and the truth about men, male sexuality and the reality of what turns us on. Here’s a hint. It’s not your PhD or your ability to enjoy walks by the beach or the fact that family and friends are important to you. Is this sinking in yet?

But back to teh menz…

A man without game, without the extroversion, the ability to attract is abso-fucking-lutely punished in our current society, especially in today’s day and age of feminism, hypergamy and the female preferred form of promiscuity “The Boyfriend”, serial monogamy, trading boyfriends, FWB’s and cohabbiting until something better comes along.. “Marriage Lite”. Where serial monogamy rules the day and commitment is viewed with revulsion and scorn during your party hardy 20’s.. all those poor shmucks looking for the traditional route of being a decent guy and their beta skills to find a relationship are shit out of luck. Their necks are in the gallows whilst the women are off to the race track to ride the ponies, trading bucks and studs between themselves having their fun… during their most powerful mate drawing years.

So when we hear women speak of how unfair it is from their point of view.. you know, once the power wanes and reality hits home, we have to ask if they ever contemplated the unfairness towards the dudes in the same spot many years ago. Let’s ennumerate it just for shits and giggles shall we?


to judge a woman by her age over which she has no control over but may delay by exhibiting feminine grace, fitness, and more applications of makeup?

to judge a woman by her shape which she has every manner of control over simply by not eating like a pig and moving once in a while?

to judge a woman by the amount of men she has allowed inside her conferring ultimate status upon them.. completely and totally under the woman’s purview and under her SOLE control.

Those are the 3 main criteria which men judge women by which determine youth, health, loyalty, fidelity, vitality and fertility. Contrast that to what women judge men by regardless of age.


to judge a man by his maturity level?
to judge a man by his height or his hairline which cannot be altered without massive surgery?
to judge a man by his station in life and status he maintains?
to judge a man by the amount of wealth, finances and assets he carries?
to judge a man by his power base and his ability to command?
to judge a man by the company he keeps, by those he calls friend?
to judge a man by his current employment and whether he enjoys it or not?
to judge a man by his ability to be funny or make you laugh incessantly?
to judge a man by his goals, drive, ambition or lack thereof?
to judge a man by his looks or lacktherof compared to Channing Tatem?
to judge a man by his musculature or physique which takes years to chisel into ‘attractive’?
to judge a man by his past or his family background?
to judge a man not by his intellect but by his level of education?
to judge a man by his ability/inability to read your mind?
to judge a man by his ability to shut down your childish shit test?
to judge a man by his inability to get or maintain sexual relationships and be viewed as a loser?
to judge a man by the shoes he wears or his lack of ‘fashion’?

I’m sure if i spent more time i could write a longer more exhaustive list but i think i made the point crystal clear. Women are judged on very few criteria and women have free reign over all of them save but one.. our biological aging process. Men on the other hand are judged throughout all of time, at all times without reprieve or respite. Where a woman’s day of reckoning is in the far and distant future, a man’s trial by fire begins at onset of puberty and never ceases. The trials become lesser as age takes hold because of either the mans ability to adapt and respond better, or simply nature adding the age penalty to women finally starts to take hold.

Over at 3rd Millennium Men i was trying to make the case and the argument that both the man and the woman should be at the height of their power respectively for the perfect relationship, but barring every highschool guy learning game like a champ i don’t think its possible for them to compete with more established men in their late 20’s early 30’s unless they’re jocks, so that would leave a lot of dry men out there in their early 20’s.. something i can relate to. Commenter jbaee made a better remark than all of my blither blather about Ferrari’s ever could:

The answer is, what is she willing to sacrifice to get him to commit. A young woman who decides to marry is sacrificing her prime “fun” years. What is any middle age woman sacrificing? Are you sacrificing anything at all when you suggest that a man should choose based on “real love” or anything of that sort? Of course not–you are suggesting men should choose based on the qualities that would benefit you. That isn’t sacrifice, thats being selfish.

And this goes back to what the old grandmothers of patriarchy understood, that women in their teens utilized their power at the height of their sexual biological prime to quickly choose from the best mate possible and LOCK DOWN, sacrificing and FORSAKING all others to be with that man. That man who will inevitably grow into something bigger, better, sexier and more resourceful who will also sacrifice and FORSAKE all others when the advantage swings to his favor because he is loyal, and his word is his bond, and he remembers the wife of his youth (the woman in her most fertile years, who bonded with him thus creating memories that will carry on in the mans mind and sustain him well past when wrinkles develop),  thus fulfilling the old axiom “Behind every great man stands a greater woman!” A woman who sacrificed her hypergamous advantage and reaped a loving family and a dutiful husband who would stay committed to her once the ravages of age began to take their toll.

[PROTIP ALERT – A man in “love” with his wife will never see her real age, only the beautiful person that helps make colors seem more vibrant and life feel worth living. I know, i was in love with my wife, now i only have fleeting memories but no love. And i see age. Keeping a man in love is YOUR responsibility ladies! Adding value, being feminine, and showing respect towards your partner and giving him a reason to love you will last throughout time. Bitches and TankGrrrl attitude women will have to deal with this type of mentality[link] should they fail to continue to earn their mates love.]

Feminism took the naive upon a brutal path. A path of lies, against nature and entire generations are just now starting to wake up to the repercussions of it. I have no clue if Plenty of Fish is fucked up or on the fritz but for some reason my phone app is displaying NOTHING BUT women aged between 32 and 45 despite me having changed my settings to look at 22-35. I see women as old as 38-40 who have ‘no children’ filling out the offspring option with ‘wants children’  and i can only shake my head and see another casualty of war. And it truly is a casualty, and it really is a war. A war wrought by feminists against biology and against nature. As The Private Man is fond of saying.


Ignorance of the law is no excuse. I was ignorant. I was ignorant for a great number of years about a great number of things and was thusly shut out of the mating game. And not a drop of sympathy was shed by any fucking feminazi or ManBoobGelatinousMassDavidFuckFaceFutrelle or MegaManginaCuntNamedHugoRapistSchwyzer for my lack of ability and proclaimed a loser NiceGuy who couldn’t get laid. I was sentenced to the penal colony by Judge AmandaImmaIrrelevantCuntMarcotte when she pronounced that i should just “learn to be more attractive”

I did my time. I paid my dues. I suffered. I endured. I learned. And finally now here, at the end.. i’m fucking free from the slammer and ready TO LIVE according for myself and not for feminist ideals or the feminine imperative. I’ve been freed from the shackles of living a life of having sunshine blown up my ass, being force fed bullshit and being told to follow those who do not even understand themselves and why they do what they do.

But what a cost i paid for that naivete. A cost that keeps getting replayed over and over every single day with every new naive beta that is plugged into the matrix. And every naive young woman that also enters the matrix, a slave to her nature and unwitting accomplice to the feminist agenda helps perpetuate this.. whether consciously or subconsciously. They will either pick up the mantle of feminism and stand on the front lines and scream at the top of their voices words like “STHHHHHCUM” at men, or they will simply follow the lead of hookup culture and have their fun as they barter away their sex for commitment in much the same manner as those who would trade liberty for security.. they will find neither.

Only at the end of their trial, when they are being judged as old age takes hold, as their sexuality lays plundered.. will they will look upon the courtroom and plead for mercy. They were ignorant. They didn’t know any better. They were only following orders. For the love of god have mercy.

Is it fair that they now receive a stay of execution and leave the courtroom free of all consequences while the bodies of the men twist in the wind still hanging from the gallows off in the distance… paying their dues?

This is my conflict. I’ve come to like Audi, and i like lots of women who are nearing the wall/past the wall. I want to shield her/them from the repercussions of what will soon become inevitability. The natural tendency for nature to swing the pendulum hard the other way to restore the balance, however fleeting, before it returns to unbalanced in the opposite direction. The complete and utter rejection of feminism, the response and growth of hyper-masculinity, the eschewing of gender ‘equality’ for gender ‘reality’. I want her to be spared the savagery of spinsterhood like so many of her female compatriots have fallen prey to. I want to tell her it will be alright.

“I didn’t say it would be easy, Neo. I just said it would be. the truth.”
Morpheus – The Matrix

Yet my RedPill won’t let me. Naivete didn’t save me..

Equality under the law of evolutionary instinct.


I didn’t write this post to attack women or the way they conduct their lives per say, but more as to how the reverse conduct by men is so penalized, to make the grotesquery of this evolved double standard painfully obvious in the light of day.

I would actually encourage words of advice for Audi and other women, and as many already have pointed out to exuding graceful femininity can melt even the hardened of hearts, and showing a man precisely how you will add value to his life will go far beyond just your looks or your vagina. But with each passing day, you must lower your expectations bit by bit as you compete with younger versions of you in an age where many women have been duped into believing they should trade their sex for commitment instead of building commitment with the end goal of sex.

Women can choose to heed these words or ignore them entirely.. i care not. I already know there will be a shaking of heads and knashing of teeth from many a woman who won’t agree with my summation of things. And i accept that. But don’t kid yourselves.. the sphere grows exponentially every day. The pendulum has started to swing back and judging by the comments i see being left at mainstream media sites to stupid articles written by women about the dearth of good men, i can see there is a lot of weight behind that pendulum. The days of having their cake and eating eat are coming to a close.

“I want to play a game.”
“Live or die, make your choice!”


  1. I read Audi’s comments at her blog and M3’s responses. Audi, with all due respect, you come across as a poor relationship and marriage risk. You’re still pining for the alpha men with whom you had “fun”. You come across as though you’ve really not learned anything. You call the previous men “mistakes” but say the sex with them and the time you had with them was “fun” and you “don’t regret” it.

    Eventually, any man you’re dating or serious with is going to hear you say this, or words to this effect — that you’re an alpha widow who had “fun” in her past and you’re now “settling” for some poor sucker and offering leftovers.

    No man wants to be the consolation prize. No man wants to be the box of Hamburger Helper that you got after failing to win the shiny new car or the Caribbean vacation. No man wants to know that you are with him only because the hot men you f*cked before only wanted to f*ck you and didn’t want to marry you.

    There has been no change, other than that the “fun” men didn’t work out with you for whatever reason. Something tells me that if it had worked out with one of the “fun” guys, and that “fun” hot alpha had dropped to one knee and proposed, there would be none of the blogging or navel gazing you’re doing now.

    What has really happened is that you’ve realized you had fun but your strategy didn’t work. You don’t know why it didn’t work. All you know is that you don’t want anyone judging you for it.

    cont’d below

  2. Heheh, there is romantic hope for you both (not together, just for both of you separately). If not for your intrinsic characteristics, then for how people are willing to see you. For you, because you might be able to pull off the dark/brooding man image. And for Audi, because she might be able to pull off the naive/honest/vulnerable woman image. Both intensely attractive.

  3. Yeah, after re-analyzing Audi’s post, M3’s post, and deti’s comment, I have now come to the conclusion that it is not much more than upcoming-Wall rationalization. I like Audi as a person but she does indeed make a poor marriage risk due to her past “skirmishes”. It’s a shame. Nice chick, too. Someone will marry her, but it’s definitely not going to be a red pill man or an alpha who knows his SMV.

  4. But all is not lost, Audi. I would encourage you to go back and read what you wrote, and understand why you went through a promiscuous period.

    You said the sex gave you power and confidence.

    You said the sex was “fun”.

    You said it’s not fun anymore and your priorities changed.

    The only way past this is to change your life and your outlook.

    Yes, your past sex life was a mistake because it didn’t get you what you say you wanted — a monogamous relationship.

    Yes, you do regret it. Else you would not be blogging and commenting about it.

    Own it. Accept it.

    Then move on.

    Be feminine. Be pleasant and kind. Don’t be bitchy. Find something good about every man you meet.

    Do all you can to improve your physical attractiveness.

    Lower your standards for what you expect from men and from relationships.

  5. I would also like to concur with your assertion that the ‘sphere is growing. I see comments left at The Atlantic, NY Times, Wall Street Journal, and various other sites as proof of this.

  6. I have a question about female sexual conduct. I see a lot of this around the sphere and elsewhere.

    I’ve heard it said that women don’t do one night stands with hot alpha men for the sex — the sex is incidental. What they really want, according to the women who engage in this behavior, is to get a relationship. The way to get one of those men, we’re told, is to put out in the hopes that he will want to see her again after he gets the sex he wants.

    So my questions are these:

    1. Any of you women who have had an ONS or a same night lay — are you really hoping for a relationship with the man, or are you just wanting the sex?

    2. What on God’s green earth makes a slut think that putting out for an alpha will make him want to invest in and commit to her? Does a typical slut really think that she will have sex with him, and he will drop to one knee and propose? REALLY?

    3. So how many times does a slut have to do this, and with how many men, before she figures out that IT’S NOT WORKING? How many times does a hot alpha have to plow her before she figures out that what happened eight times before with eight different guys is probably going to happen this time too, and the next time, and the time after that?

  7. “Especially if the rules you followed were crafted by a society that began an experiment to see if human behavior was indeed a social construct through conditioning and behavioral modification instead of something deeper and more innate… primal. And if it were the latter that was found to be the truth, could leeway be given to avoid the consequences of those actions done under sincere misguidance?”

    Bro, the continued raise in your level of written expression and the way you develop your ideas is a pleasure to follow.

    Also: your honesty continues to blow me away. How many of us in the ‘Sphere are as comfortable talking about our inner beta that was nurtured into us for all those years? Not enough. So many of us still have that inner-whiteknight that tries to shame us into being tools of the feminine imperative against our better reasoning… but I don’t see anyone else copping to it. Your background and your truthfulness about it and its effects upon you is what separates you and your blog.

  8. deti,
    I dunno about other women, but to answer your first question, I tried casual sex just for the sex. The guy was hot and it seemed like a good idea to indulge in it. Perhaps other women think the same, then catch feelings?

  9. Emma:

    Now see, I understand that perspective. I can understand a woman saying “I’m gonna f*ck that guy because he’s hot and good looking and I just wanna f*ck him and I don’t care what happens tomorrow”.

    What I can’t understand is a woman thinking that after she deals out her trump card and then has nothing else to work with, nothing else to play, nothing else to offer; she thinks he will “owe” her a relationship or investment or commitment. I don’t understand the thinking that sleeping with a man or ONSsing him is going to somehow get him to commit to her.

    And I also don’t get why women play the same game and run the same failing strategy over and over again. Did they not learn that the strategy isn’t working when it didn’t work the first eight times they tried it?

    Question for you Emma: How did you feel after your casual sex encounter(s)? Regret? Guilt? Shame? Victory? Sense of accomplishment? Satisfaction?

  10. Deti,

    The sex-for-commitment thing is pure hamster.

    Propagandized by people like Swalsh.

    I tried to type up a coherent explanation, but it’s past my bedtime.

    Hoes gonna hoe. Hoes ain’t gonna admit hoeing. Hoes gonna bullshit. The rest of my thoughts on the topic are brought to you by Jessie J.

  11. I have a few thoughts on this, but they are just theorizing, as I haven’t had the experience of doing slutting over and over again, expecting a different result. But I have read some women’s thoughts on this before.

    1)When I was just starting out, society was telling me that this is how things are done. You can have casual sex, or try dating, and love will “just happen” naturally with someone. If it hasn’t happened yet, it’s just chance, not necessarily anything you’re doing.

    2)Many women seem convinced that if you don’t give up sex, the man will leave. If they never put out, they have no chance. Bring apex fallacy into this, and you have women thinking they MUST have some casual sex, in order to get a relationship.

    3)You ask why women continue sleeping with guys and hoping commitment will come, despite the high failure rate of this technique. Why do niceguys continue being niceguys for so long? Aren’t males supposed to be smarter with cause&effect? Apparently not, and harmful ideology, mixed with stupid, self-defeating personal ideals, can keep someone doing the same thing, expecting a different result. Could these be connected somehow?

    What does everyone else think?

  12. As for what I felt after trying casual sex.. You see, I got lucky. I quickly discovered the manosphere, and the guy was good. So I felt pretty happy I got what I wanted. It’s like seeing the beartrap everyone stepped into, and pulling the leg away fast enough.

  13. Young girls aren’t looking for commitment.

    If one simply accepts the premise, the rest all falls into place.

    Naturally, this gets retconned away as the options dry up, or the dicks start to chafe.

  14. On the other hand, many women admit they were just playing the field and now feel like settling down. They were sportfucking, not looking actively for commitment.

  15. Vicomte:

    “The sex-for-commitment thing is pure hamster.”

    That’s what I thought too. Same with “commitment for sex”.


    I can see your POV; with everyone saying women can f*ck like men and love will “just happen”. I can also understand a woman looking at this hot alpha who is completely out of her league, and saying “If I don’t give up the booty I have no chance with him”. And she’s right. The only thing he wants from her is sex. If she doesn’t give it to him, someone else will.

    “You ask why women continue sleeping with guys and hoping commitment will come, despite the high failure rate of this technique. Why do niceguys continue being niceguys for so long? Aren’t males supposed to be smarter with cause&effect? Apparently not, and harmful ideology, mixed with stupid, self-defeating personal ideals, can keep someone doing the same thing, expecting a different result. Could these be connected somehow?”

    The reason why niceguys continue on the same path is because we were specifically told to do what we did. We asked our moms and sisters and “Female friends” what we should do and how to be to get girls to like us (because hey, if you want to know what a girl wants, who better to ask than another girl?).

    Our moms told us specifically that we were supposed to be nice. If it’s not working out, “It’s because you’re not being nice enough. You need to be nicer.”

    Girl doesn’t like you, deti? “You’re not nice enough. You need to be nicer.”

    Can’t get past a second date, deti? “You’re obviously not nice enough.”

    Girl broke up with you and then shagged the hot dude? “Well, he was obviously nicer than you were.”

    But mom, I was nice to her. “Well, then, she is a stupid girl. That other man obviously tricked her into sleeping with him. ”

    DId you have sex with that girl, deti? “You are a bad man. You tricked her, manipulated her and used her! Everyone knows girls don’t really like sex!”

    Mom, I’m doing all this stuff and she still didn’t like me. “Did you tell her how you feeeeeeeel? Girls love guys who wear their hearts on their sleeves and are really in touch with their feeeeeeeelings and who show lots of emotion. When you do that she’ll know you really care about her.”

    Mom, I told her I liked her a lot and cared about her. She broke up with me. “Well, she’s stupid; or you just weren’t nice enough.”

    And on and on and on.

    So, Emma, did everyone tell you you needed to give it up to guys? Did people tell you “Well, you’re just not f*king him well enough”?

  16. “Young girls aren’t looking for commitment”?

    Of course they are. They would gladly eschew their “I’m not looking for a boyfriend” mantra in the face of an alpha.

  17. Emma, are you suggesting M3 and Audi should get a room? LOL!
    Great post, M3! Since Mentu quit writing, you’ re the best writer in the Manosphere.
    As to the decade or so that always stands between the personal development of men and women, It always ensures that being a young man in his twenties is pretty difficult. The obvious solution is for young men to go out with teenage girls, 14 and older. For some twisted reason, it’s either illegal or frowned upon.

  18. As soon as they can have him he ceases to be alpha. He won’t last long.

  19. Vicomte:

    “Young girls aren’t looking for commitment.

    “If one simply accepts the premise, the rest all falls into place.

    “Naturally, this gets retconned away as the options dry up, or the dicks start to chafe.”

    See, this is what I think too. Frankly it makes the most sense when you look at it objectively and why people do what they do.

    This notion of “I’m going to f*ck him and he’ll love me and want to marry me” I think is Monday morning hamsterwheeling to rationalize past slutty behavior so as to put the best face on it she can and so she can put some “honor” on dishonorable behavior.

    In no world I can think of does it make any sense at all that a woman can believe she’ll give up sex on the first date and somehow finagle that guy’s undying love. The odds of that happening are so low as to be negligible.

    And I don’t believe for a minute that a woman doesn’t have the brainpower to figure out that if it didn’t work the first eight times she does it, it’s probably not going to work the next time. (I don’t care what number you pick. One, two, ten — doesn’t matter.)

    Do women share stories about this stuff? Do they advise each other to just keep on f*cking and maybe they’ll luck out and find a “nice guy” who will treat them right?

  20. Great post M3. You hit the nail on the head.

  21. Deti,

    From what I can tell, the only time any kind of advice is offered is when a girl is having problems wrangling the ‘alpha’ of the month.

    Other than that, it’s mostly ‘OMG he’s cute!’ ‘I blew him at the party LOL!’ ‘You have him a handjob LOLOMGZ I did too!’ And various derivations thereof.

  22. Well, that was sort of the point.. That if you don’t fuck the guy, he will leave… My parents didn’t really tell me anything, but the message from society seemed pretty clear.

    However, it isn’t about me, and you might be right. Niceguys have more going against them. They have explicit messages, while women have some societal norms and mostly ignorance. And yet, culture can mess with our mind profoundly, and lead us to believe the stupidest things, even if our parents don’t explicitly tell us to become a slut. Their silence on the matter is a sign of acceptance.

  23. Vicomte:

    “Young girls aren’t looking for commitment.”

    Story time. I was in college, 19 years old. Just had a bad breakup with my first college GF. Met a smoking hot girl in class; we met up at a party later. I took her back to her dorm room and did her. I was with her a couple of weeks, having good sex. I was really falling for her and went beta because I wanted to keep this one and I was told you have to offer her a relationship. So I did. She told me she didn’t want to get serious. That was the end of that.

    A couple of months later she’s dating a fratboy premed student.

    “If one simply accepts the premise, the rest all falls into place.

    “Naturally, this gets retconned away as the options dry up, or the dicks start to chafe.”

    Yep. Another story. I got out of grad school and moved to my new city where I don’t know anyone. I start dating. I have older women throwing themselves at me. Curiously, they’re all between ages 28 and 31, off some bad relationships, and never married. Their stories are all the same:

    “I have always wanted to get married.”

    “There aren’t any nice guys out there anymore.”

    “I’ve been used too many times. Sick of all the games.”

    “I always found myself with guys who for whatever reason, just didn’t want to get married.”

    Looking back, it all makes sense now. These women spent their 20s having fun or slutting it up. The game’s getting old, they don’t want to play anymore, and in fact they realized they played the game and lost. So they have to think up a story, a narrative, to make them look good (or at least not look bad). The story then becomes that they slept with all those guys because they were trying to find a husband and they just didn’t know how else to do it.

  24. I’m going to answer Deti’s questions:

    1. Any of you women who have had an ONS or a same night lay — are you really hoping for a relationship with the man, or are you just wanting the sex?

    There are women to do ONS just for sex, BUT most women are hoping for a relationship.

    2. What on God’s green earth makes a slut think that putting out for an alpha will make him want to invest in and commit to her? Does a typical slut really think that she will have sex with him, and he will drop to one knee and propose? REALLY?

    YES! Women don’t understand men or how they view sex. They have been lead to believe they can fuck around just like men do, that their promiscuity is viewed exactly the same as men’s.

    Also a woman thinks if a guy bangs her, he must really LIKE her, and that they bonded through having sex. I know, you must be cracking up at that, but that’s what they think.

    Women don’t realize that a man can bang a woman he LOATHES. Men don’t have to have any emotions involved to have sex. Women don’t get that because that’s not how women feel.

    3. So how many times does a slut have to do this, and with how many men, before she figures out that IT’S NOT WORKING? How many times does a hot alpha have to plow her before she figures out that what happened eight times before with eight different guys is probably going to happen this time too, and the next time, and the time after that?

    She doesn’t get that it’s not working. She’s puzzled and wonders why all she gets is laid with no calls back and certainly no commitment. I’ve seen women do this with dozens of guys. There appears to be no limit.

  25. BB,
    Lol, no, I was just saying they can individually find love. It’s just that they both made some sad posts about their prospects, but I think they can do well, even with their self-preceived issues.

  26. Carolina:

    Is there any logic to this at all?

    For example: 24 year old woman out with friends meets guy at hotel bar. He’s in town on a business trip. He’s in town for a week. He’s never been here before and probably won’t ever be again. She is instantly attracted. He takes her back to his hotel room. They have pretty good sex.

    The odds are nil that these two people will ever see each other again. He invested the cost of a couple of drinks at the hotel bar.

    What on earth makes her think this hot guy is going to fall in love with her? Because he had sex with her? Because he spent a few bucks on a drink or two? It was sex. It was JUST SEX. There is NO LOGICAL WAY this woman can think that anything between these two is ever going to work.

  27. And all this bullshit about women not realizing being slutty is undesirable is exactly that.

    They know, they just don’t care right now.

    Girls are incredibly quick to denigrate the promiscuity of their friends. They all understand it’s bad. They just ignore the fact in regard to themselves.

    Despite best intentions, we have hamsters in this here thread.

  28. Add to the equation: Let’s say this woman has done this before, with a couple of her guy friends (she had sex with them while drunk). And she’s had a few ONSs with other local guys, one of whom she used to work with; one was an acquaintance from back in high school.

    What then? Isn’t her screwing this hot business trip guy just about her wanting to get laid? Does she really think she will get an engagement ring out of having sex with a transient business man?

    The point I’m getting at is: Isn’t she doing this for the fun, for the sex? Her having sex with man after man thinking that they will drop to one knee and pledge their undying love is frankly just about the shittiest relationship strategy I’ve ever heard of — even worse than the man offering commitment right out of the gate. It’s doomed to failure. I don’t get it.

  29. Occam’s Razor, Deti.

    Rationalization. Retcon. Willful ignorance.

  30. See, here’s another reason why I think this “I sexed all those men because I just want a relationship” is bullshit.

    If women really wanted a relationship, they have all kinds of men like M3 used to be in his 20s. They can choose from all sorts of men who are working jobs and, while they don’t look like Clooney or have Bill Gates’ money, they aren’t unattractive.

    But guys like that have to do without. Those men can’t get dates. They can’t generate any interest from even HB 5s and 6s.

    Women who wail about wanting relationships have at least three or four men they know who would walk these women down the aisle and wife them up in a heartbeat. But these women don’t want those men because they aren’t “attractive”.

  31. “she might be able to pull off the naive/honest/vulnerable woman image.”

    The vaif as I believe this archetype is called is very attractive in deed.

    Very good post M3. Clear explanation that I agree with. You left out one thing. Even when men get a second chance by getting red pill knowledge they still have to compete with other men. Because red pill knowledge is not widely known it is a bonanza for the few red pill men that are because the competition mostly do not know how to compete. As knowledge spreads this will eventually come to an end and we come to the point where it is not your knowledge but only what cards you were dealt and how hard you are willing to work on improving your lot that can improve your outcome. At this point some men will loose out despite hard work based on real knowledge because other men are working hard based on real knowledge. The POSSIBILITY for men is just that, a possibility, and the flip side of that is that there will always be more men who loose in this game than women as the bottom men always get left out. Being a man is like living in harsh capitalist country, some win big some loose big. Being a woman is like living in a social democracy. Almost everyone gets something but those who win big won`t win that big. It is basically a risk and adversity strategy vs a security and comfort strategy.

    Red pill women, no matter age or past, do at least get the advantage of having knowledge that lets them compete a lot better than almost all other women, until the knowledge spread so wide everyone knows. Considering how overweight and unhealthy a large proportion of american women are that is a huge advantage. Knowing about the importance of femininity and various girl game also helps a lot. And even if you do end up with a guy that has less dominance than you desire Athols site and forum is a testament to the fact that it can work very well to ask him to increase his dominance. Finding a confident guy with some bad programing and making him dominant can work almost as well as finding one who is dominant to begin with. Especially if you keep in the back of your mind that a man that is a confident guy today would have been naturally dominant enough for you before if he had not been told to behave differently and that natural dominance will come quite naturally to such a man if it is told to him that it is both ok and desired and natural. Again Athols forum is a testament to this working rather well. It might not be quite what you ideally wanted but it can still be very good.

    You can enhance this process by behaving significantly more submissively and indirectly sending signals for him to take the lead when you are dating. You can add in strong hints such as saying you like it when the man leads and you like it when a man can stand up to you etc. and you can early on during sex ask him to be dominant in bed and this will also help your attraction for him and help him find his dominant self.

    In terms of sending signals to men that make you come of as “safe” I have couple of tips that I think are very helpful both for making you come across “safer” and which actually makes you safer which again makes them ethical towards the man.

    There is a strong correlation IMO between the neediness that leads to excessive stimulus seeking in all aspects of life and sexually irresponsible behavior and being a bad relationship prospect. The dopamine craving that leads to excessive drinking, drug taking, eating of junk food, consuming too much sugar etc. is strongly connected with the inability to make responsible day to day choices in all matters and especially the need for exciting NEW men and very high stimulus in relationships.

    People who score high on the explorer personality characteristic, which I do, have natural tendencies in this direction, but bad emotional health fires it up. Also there is a strong tendency for all this things to reinforce each other so that if someone starts consuming lots of bad food, sugar, drinking too much and behaving irresponsibly in day to day matters your dopamine carvings goes out of whack because of the excessive stimulus and you start to have excessive stimulus craving from sex and relationships as well.

    I`ve noticed these tendencies in real life and i have noticed it on PUA boards where I`ve seen a pattern of women who are very health conscious and stable not shit testing excessively and generally being much more solid LTR partners than women who are the opposite.

    So by both becoming that type of health conscious person and becoming highly responsible in day to day life I believe you can both become a person that craves less constant excitement from men, gravitates more towards comfort and you will come of safer to men because something in us subconsciously connects the unhealthiness of an unhealthy lifestyle with irresponsible sexual choices. We observe a sort of craving and neediness in it which precisely signals an unstable neediness in all matters. It does not matter if the guy understands any of this I believe he will sense it. And certainly the sense of stability and security that comes with a woman appearing to be very responsible and stable in day to day life subconsciously implies to men sexually safe.

    So, become HIHGLY health conscious and very responsible person with strong integrity. I know that you are dabbling in meditation and that will do a hell of a lot in order to make you as healthy as you can be and reduce your cravings for all sorts of other unhealthy habits. It also strongly signals that you are a safer bet. A woman who meditates daily, does yoga 4 times a week and eats very healthily comes across very well. If you lived irresponsibly before a lifestyle change to such a lifestyle makes it CREDIBLE that you have had a personality change that is REAL and not just changed your marketing so to speak. It also does lead to personality change. The added bonus of this lifestyle is that it will buy you a few extra years in terms of how your you look.

    You can also go significantly further in terms cultivating femininity than most people in the sphere today understands. There are specific meditations and exercises that cultivate feminine energy in the same fashion that weightlifting and martial arts cultivate testosterone/masculine energy. Said Desilets is great teacher of Taoist sexual arts and has a program that is designed to help you do that. It incorporates both meditations for cultivating feminine energy and dance and movement exercises to make you learn to move in a feminine and sensual way. In addition she teaches various bedroom arts that will blow a guys mind. This is her site:


    This I believe is also a very good program for cultivating femininity but with a more psychological approach:


  32. Some fuck for fun, some try to get a relationship that way. But why lie about it afterwards? Why not simply say “I fucked all these men for fun, but it’s kind of like drinking and can make you sick”? Does it sound more horrible than saying you were trying for a relationship all along, just kept.. being a bad judge of character? running into jerks by accident 8 times in a row?.. Fucking “like a man” is supposed to be so normal that I don’t see why anyone would lie about the REASONS. I can see why someone might conceal their N, but why reasons?

  33. “Over at 3rd Millennium Men i was trying to make the case and the argument that both the man and the woman should be at the height of their power respectively for the perfect relationship, but barring every highschool guy learning game like a champ i don’t think its possible for them to compete with more established men in their late 20′s early 30′s unless they’re jocks, so that would leave a lot of dry men out there in their early 20′s”

    This is so true… in the past 3 months I have dated women between the ages of 18 and 35. With a lot being in their early 20s. Being in your mid-late twenties for a guy is truly an unexpected blossoming time for a guy. Well unexpected if I hadn’t been aware thanks to the Manosphere!!!

  34. Thanks for the post M3, I do so enjoy your writing. I’d repost this elsewhere but I have people I consider friends who it would likely crush. It makes me a little reluctant.

    One thought that did occur to me reading the comments though, is why women keep doing the same thing over and over, trying to trade sex up front for a relationship with the “hawt” guy.

    As observed, the same question could be asked of the NiceGuy who tries again and again to get a relationship via being extra nice and that never working.

    I think for the slut, one thing that hasn’t been mentioned is that the price of admitting the mistake is enormously high for the slut, much higher than the price for the NiceGuy.

    Consider the position the slut finds herself in and what she needs to admit to change direction. Not only (like the NiceGuy) does she need to repudiate everything she was taught to believe about the way relationships work, she also needs to confront the stark reality that the “pearl of great price” that she had to trade for the commitment she desires is gone and can never be gotten back. Worse yet, she didn’t lose it, she _squandered_ it on men who cared nothing for her at all. To change direction and admit that giving up sex to secure commitment is a failed path requires that she admit all of those things to herself. Even worse, it isn’t like she can backtrack and get back on the right path. Once you spend it, it is gone forever, the gate is forever barred to her. The NiceGuy at least always has the option of changing course. It is hard, but not impossible.

    You wonder why women rationalize the way they do, look at what they need to rationalize away. Of course they could take the bitter pill, admit their extreme foolishness, accept their much diminished value and seek to make the best deal they can in light of this profound stupidity, but who is going to do that? Frankly on some level I don’t think the damaged hypergamy that reigns in a slut can ever hope to admit the truth, not when you have a culture at large that will seek to excuse her behavior for her and seek to shame those who would hold her accountable.

    Additionally human beings in general aren’t known for these sorts of life changing realizations and admissions. They are generally only seen as part of a serious religious conversion of one sort or another in my experience. The price is to high for anything less.

  35. Emma:

    “I can see why someone might conceal their N, but why reasons?”

    Because a woman admitting she fucked guys for fun and for sport means she’s admitting she’s unfit for a relationship. Fucking for sport and for fun is something men do. We don’t want to take our relationship, investment, commitment and money chances on a woman who is essentially a man in a woman’s body. If she fucked for fun and sport before, what on earth makes us think we’re anything other than either

    1. The next notch; or
    2. The safe harbor she is settling for because she can’t pull guys anymore like she used to.

    Besides, all that sportfucking really jades a woman and makes her cynical. It really coarsens her personality. I’ve seen it: deep distrust of men. Everyone’s got an ulterior motive. All guys just want sex. You’re just using me.

  36. This is a brilliant comments conversation going on from Deti. My number one post in my ‘Top 10 Posts for Single Women’ is and remains not to put out if a girl wants a guy to take her seriously:

    “Guys will stay with a girl and take her seriously BECAUSE she won’t put out. Don’t put out girls, and you’ll find it a million times easier to nail down a good man.”


    Yet read the angry comments from women below – they just can’t cope with the fact that how fast they put out DOES affect how a man views them! It’s the most obvious thing in the world to us, yet they don’t want to deal with it. All respect Deti.

  37. Thanks 3MM.

    These are really honest questions. I’ve heard this before from women: That they are having sex with men and slutting it up because they want relationships, and they think that they can sleep with men to make the men love them.

    I really want to understand this.

    Who tells these women that this is a good relationship strategy? Certainly not Mom and Dad (I hope).

    Is it your BFFs who tell them this? Well, if so, how many of your BFFs got boyfriends and husbands through sexing him up right off the bat ? How many husbands vis-a-vis pump and dumps?

    Who is advocating this for women? Who is telling them that they should sex up guys specifically for the purpose of making the guys fall in love with them?

  38. Quickly cuz im still at work.
    “Who tells these women that this is a good relationship strategy? Certainly not Mom and Dad (I hope). ”

    If we were still on a savannah or plain with dinosaurs and mammoths chasing us, this wouldn’t be an issue. Without language or civilization this way of behaving is natural. It’s why Dalrock has posts on females going ‘feral’.

    Civilization, technology, evolved sensibilities, technology, it’s an artificial edifice on top of our primal nature and the only way it works is with rules in place to curtail it. That’s what “Patriarchy” was all about! Great grandmothers, grandmothers and mothers all guiding their daughter around the turbulence of their own nature because they KNEW better. Same for men being brought up and raised as men by men.

    The last 40 years removed every rule, barrier and stricture in place and allowed civil society to embrace going feral again. What you’re seeing now is the result. Nobody told them it’s a good strategy… it’s in their blood because it’s primal.

    “Who is advocating this for women?”
    I’ll give you 3 guesses and the 1st two don’t count. Rhyms with enema jizzem.

  39. Amazing, deti. I would have never come up with that by myself. It always seemed to me that whatever reasons for fucking many guys might be, the sheer fact can be bad, no matter why you did it. Doing it for fun means you didn’t give those previous lovers too much meaning, but you have a light view on sex. Doing it as an attempt to gain a relationship means you might be an alpha widow, but at least you think sex is meaningful. How do you think women find out which one is the less offensive reason?

  40. What I’m saying is that it seems like substituting typhus with cholera, like it’s supposed to be better somehow. Lots of failed relationship attempts choarsens a woman’s personality as well, just in a slightly different way.

  41. EMma:

    I’m really just making a guess at it, knowing women as I do and knowing that women employ the anti-slut defense. One of womens’ greatest fears is being judged negatively. They react viscerally to being seen in a negative light. Women absolutely HATE being judged (though they’re quite happy to judge others).

    My guess is that women determine the least offensive reason for past sluthood simply through saying to themselves: “Which reason for my past behavior is plausible, sufficiently admitting remorse and regret, but won’t make me look like a slut? Whichever one does that for me, that’s the one we’ll go with.”

  42. It’s not a conscious process.

    I thought we used the hamster thing so we wouldn’t have to explain this every time.

    This isn’t logical thinking. It’s no thinking.

  43. While one could argue forever over who is the Manosphere’s best writer, you have clearly become its best graphic artist. I nearly spit out my coke laughing when I saw the M/F 18/35 chart.

  44. @ Emma:

    “They [men] have explicit messages, while women have some societal norms and mostly ignorance. And yet, culture can mess with our mind profoundly, and lead us to believe the stupidest things, even if our parents don’t explicitly tell us to become a slut. Their silence on the matter is a sign of acceptance.”

    Huh? No one ever sits you down and says “don’t f*ck every Tom, Dick and Harry who wants to jump your bones. Don’t be stupid. Guys will say anything you want to hear to get into your panties. If you have sex with a lot of men then good men won’t want to marry you and you’ll just make it harder to get married”? No one ever says anything like that to you?

  45. I was told to use condoms and avoid potential rapist-serial killers.

  46. Hehe tnx! I put in serious effort on the gladiator fight amongst the guys.

  47. Photoshop is my crystal meth.

  48. Haha, Emmatheho.

  49. Excellent post.

    Feminism punishes men into celibacy and women into sluttery. The only true winners are those that don’t play that game.

    I do know that my inner beta white knight is being destroyed moreso everyday when I feel absolutely nothing when women prattle on about being alone, having cats, or settled for a loser due to the wall. I don’t even feel pity. I played the fem game, I lost…and thank goodness I stopped playing the fem game. Thankfully as a guy I stopped playing right as I enter the window of peak value. For all the disadvantages this society puts on us…it can’t take away our advantage in biology.

    Women should do the same. Don’t have sex to get a guy, look good and act feminine, marry young. If that isn’t the life you want, then don’t complain about what happens during your decline.

  50. Ive had the “Is it fair?” discussion, as in this post above, in my head too. You actually did a great job at summing it up M3, and its a valuable thing to get out there because it starts a conversation. When it really comes down to it though, the question of whether its “fair” or not doesnt really matter. Because fair or not, it is what it is, and whats gonna happen is gonna happen.

    Maybe women raise the fairness issue in an attempt to get men to sympathise and take pity on them, and take up that protector role. In response, I would like them to really try and imagine how much sympathy a man who has just gone through almost two decades of his own “not fair” experience will have for the people who he sees as most directly responsible for that experience. How likely do you think it is that a man who has seen the protector role doom so many other men will voluntarily take that role on for a woman who seems out of better options and who is on the downhill slope in terms of attractiveness? How likely is it that a man who has just finished extricating himself out of his own relationship desert will want to work to pull you out of the desert you find yourself in as a direct result of your own choices?

    Theres no such thing as a free lunch im afraid, and women who spend their twenties having fun, using up all of their sexual capital in the process are going to find that the bill will come due in their thirties. By this point, many of your available male peers, especially the ones who were at one point open to the idea of long term provisioning relationships, will be more aware of their growing sexual marketplace value as well as being incredibly jaded about women. As a man, theres nothing that can damage your opinion on the long term relationship suitibility of women more than seeing them act like party girls right up to the point where they start to lose their looks and keeping it up starts to take work. It makes it very clear that committment to one man and a family is not high on their list of priorities. And not only does this knock women off the pedestal, it drops them down to the gutter, and what worthy man is going to sacrifice for and protect a woman he has no respect for?

    More than that though, i think its necessary that women feel the pain from this, and put the blame where it belongs, on Feminism. The fact that Feminsm has been screwing over men for decades hasnt been enough to get rid of it, perhaps when it screws over enough women our society will finally regain its sanity and ditch it. But is it fair that women have to suffer for this to happen? Probably no more fair than the suffering men have had to endure, but who ever said life was going to be fair?

  51. M3 you are rockin it like A BOSS.

    Fairness nothing babe. Let’s see some honest contrition, and repentence, putting your head above the parapet and telling your younger counterparts what’s going to happen to them when they’re last years model. If you can’t be bothered to use your new awareness to puncture their solipsism, then how can I tell your awakening is anything more than a flailing attempt to hold attention now your SMV is decling? In which case, I have things to do.

    Have you picked up on the Cerebus the Aardvark comic ever? Seeing as you and Dave Sim are fellow citizens, and that won’t be all you’ve got in common, trust me 🙂

  52. Great post. The two lists of other-sex judging criteria nail the ‘fairness’ of it. You are working on being all red pill? The tension in your soul is great reading, but to live it? It’s lonely at the top under the best of circumstances, and we the neo-patriarchs are starting from scratch with ruined women on all flanks. You know the civilized bonding you described is impossible with most women and perilous even with a young, inexperienced one-in-a-million woman.

    I wish you would not just say ‘feminism’ is the cause. There are elite men behind feminism with infinite fiat money to fund the cultural atrocities, which you infer with the great analogy to trading freedom for security. You know what to do only too well. I’ve been studying ancient Western history. I know that to conquer or re-conquer is part of being civilized. War is hell. Assess. Adapt. Overcum.

    At least win the war of ideas in your own mind. Do you feel worthy? Well, do ya, punk? (Movie ref. for fun.) M3, if you are already congruent and at peace with yourself and just writing with pain to spread your message, fucking genius.

  53. FH,
    My thought processes might be ho, but my N is 1 (like I said, I’m superlucky!)

  54. It’s very late (or early, depending how you look at things) so I’ll just say two things;

    1. LIFE, in general, is not fair.

    2. M3, you are an awesome writer and the fact that you share your thoughts with all of us here is something to be praised. You are a tough, no bullshit, Red Pill Man without devolving into the “womenz are all evil, make them subservient to menz” mentality that so many MRAs get sucked into.
    It never ceases to amaze me how I’ll read your posts, and FINALLY get answers to why the hell my fellow women act the way they do, when previously it was like looking into a funhouse mirror…They LOOK like me, but they definitely don’t THINK like me = My life.

    Thank you for telling/explaining both sides. Yours is the BEST blog in the manosphere, as far as I’m concerned.

  55. This ranks as one of the best posts and discussions I’ve had the pleasure of reading. Well done, everyone.

    M3, you nailed it with the graphics. I’d like to add this though: 35’s on the far end of the spectrum–that is, I’ve seen plenty of women aged 24-29 with the exact same attitudes. They flit from man to man, fool around, and cry like babies when they get burned. It’s all “love me for me” and “I want something real.” Both are annoying. “Love me for me”? What, he wasn’t loving you for the hot party girl he saw on Friday night? What, you want him to think of you as more than a pair of tits?

    The “something real” bit really grates, because it implies everything she did in the past wasn’t, for whatever reason, “real.” What, the late night booty calls weren’t real? The shots that led to drunken hookups weren’t real? The “hawt” men you threw yourself at weren’t real? The player(s) who used you weren’t real? Piss off.

    As many have noted, it all of this anger/frustration get taken out on the next man who comes along for these girls. The decent men among us get punished by way of having to deal with these things. We get spurned for having normal sexual desires and we get painted as jerks simply for having penises.

  56. […] What defines a man of value? A beta, what about him is bad? That he is kind, that he isn’t assertive, manipulative, shy? I admit I have mainly been attracted to alpha’s, however, beta’s have crept in. There was something about their genuine authenticity that was appealing. Is marrying a beta a death sentence? Perhaps I could bring out the alpha in HIM? […]

  57. WOW!

    A lot can happen when you’ve gone skiing for the weekend! In the US we had a long weekend that’s to a revolutionary of his own time. A man who changed social norms for his people the United States forever. Martin Luther King, Jr., Forced the American people to re-access the value of the African-American people.

    I have read M3’s beautifully written post (seriously dude, this is like one of your and in general best posts, writing technique wise, I have read in a while, even if did kinda bash my personal choices and say I “lost value” as a female 🙂 as well as mooost of the comments.

    A lot of very interesting food for thought!

    I am not going to, as I assume many of you thought I might, argue my case. I will not write a long feminist, fuck that jay-istic –

    I am seriously SICK of all this “labeling”, feminist? What is that? I’ve said it before, here in the “manosphere” I am called a feminist, however, I am an outcast of the feminist community. Therefore, I refuse to allow myself to think of being part of any specific group of people, to be labeled anything. I am ME, I am myself, I am an individual – the one label I accept is – WOMAN. Biology RULES. I got two X chromosomes, I am woman, other than that, please, don’t put me in some Victorian era construed box fairly arbitrarily labeled for one or two or even ten things some people have in common, as if THOSE were what defined ME as a person. They don’t. That is my case, that is my argument for today. A war against labels, against placing a value on someone that you cannot quantify by the code of mathematics, no matter how many test or quizzes are created. They may provide a quantitative result but are based on a qualitative premise.

    M3 himself claims he does not want children of his own, so I must ask, why does age matter? Biology is moot in this case, as it is for
    any man that does not want children.

    I will only say, we are all entitled to our own opinions. I also hope that as human beings we understand we are fallible. That we may believe something with all our heart and soul is RIGHT then one day find out; it is not. The world is not flat, African-Americans are not “less” than Caucasians. Social norms change in the blink of an eye.

    Biology does not change, but our ideas should always be open to change, open to new ideas. Open to perhaps a man for once making a sacrifice for a woman (in reference to BB’s attack on my lack of sacrifice for a man). Open to the idea that our world, our society, our lives are different that they once were.

    Evolutionary psychology emphasizes that we live in a modern world but house a caveman brain. I do not disagree. However, I do see that sometimes we must THINK and take this into account, counter it with knowledge. Saying 18-22 is prime marriage time… where is that coming from. In the 1400’s 14-18 was the ideal and norm. As was having 9 children, 6 of which died, either in utero, stillbirth or of disease before reaching the age of 4. Average lifespan was once 40-60. Now it is 77+ in first world countries. Infant and maternal mortality 200 times better than ever 100 years ago. Men AND women did not spend 16-25 years in school. Marry an uneducated 18 year old naïf in modern times, sure…. no chance of divorce there in the 60 years you must spend together (as opposed the 20 in the past).

    We live longer, we bear healthier children, survive childbirth and are able to bear children longer than our caveman brains dictate (that is biology, it may win, but not always, if that were the case we would still be chasing down deer and caribou for food and clothes). To be truly happy, for your WHOLE life

    Yes, another point – regarding maternal mortality, since it WAS SO HIGH, men did not usually have only one wife in their lifetimes but several, up until 60 years old they were still marrying 18 year olds who would end up dying during birth 9 months after their wedding night – take a moment to think about that. Male brains are programmed to assume they will NOT be married, tied down etc. to one woman for the span of their lives, but several.

    So, I will not, I cannot say if my past is right or wrong. That would be close minded of me, further, I cant change it, I, like the rest of us can only move forward, accept whatever our actions have lead us to and keep on keeping on.

    I do stand up for accepting change. Change you your beliefs, change in your (all of our) priorities, change in social norms and change in how you value others, yourself and society. Change in your values themselves.

    Till next time. For now, I’d rather be skiing 🙂

  58. Oh and if you care… my parents… were two people from two VERY different backgrounds which promoted two extremely different ways of leading your sexual life.

    Mum grew up in communist Russia (Kiev, Ukraine to be exact). There the norm was, get hitched at 18 as a virgin ALWAYS as a virgin, have a kid by 20, live with your parent then go out and have fun like 20 somethings do, cheating was rampant (virginity was a must before marriage, after, it was party time), abortions were their form of birth control, they were like haircuts for women, you got one every 3-5 months. Couples had 1-2 children at most (city life, tiny apts housing 3 generations motivated this)…. and the men drank till their livers gave out and women moved into the role their mothers played, raised their grandchildren while their own kids went out to play (for the record my mother and her sister were NOT the norm, did not marry at 18, did not have sex either, they had bigger aspirations, like leaving a country that condemned them for both their religion and sex, and to escape an abusive father – they were focused on getting the fuck outta there and to a country they could be “free” in – mom was 27, aunt was 24, grandma 57 when they left, in the dark of night w one piece of luggage each in tow for America in 1980)

    My mom always, since I was 9 years old, urged me to “date” (not be a whore). She did not advocate nor denigrate sex before marriage. The only thing she did emphasize was the importance of sexual chemistry within a marriage (implying you should try it before you buy it). That the continued intimacy and hormonal reactions kept a couple together, in love and sustained a long-term healthy marriage. Sex was healthy, natural and condusive to healty relationships.

    Dad… wow, such a different view on sex. I cant even get into all of it. He was a child of the 60’s… take that as you will. He also was romantic, felt love deeply and married his jr hs sweetheart at 23. They had an open marriage …. sooo… yea. she dumped him. he was devastated, like a depressed man-whore who could NOT move on. He married my mom the same year his ex got re-married… coincidence?? doubtful.

    He was the opposite of the manosphere, he was DISAPPOINTED in me that I remainded chaste. he HATED the word slut and I was once chastised heavily for referring to a friend as such. He truly believe everyone was entitled to express their natural sexuality as they pleased and without judgement. He also was a truthful good person with a high sense of integrity so when he promised to love and cherish till death to us part… he did and neither of my parents ever cheated and they have been married, are still married after 30 years.

    So…. maybe there is some truth to a woman not having squandered her vagina on a boatful of men. Im sure my mom slept w other guys before my dad, I mean she got knocked up so I doubt she just started having pre-marital sex at 28 bc my dad WAS that irrisistable (though I guess its possible) but for the most part she was not sleeping around and had very few partners with dad on the opposite side of the spectrum.

    That’s my history of how my parents raised me regarding sex. Emphasis was ALWAYS placed on safety, use of condoms etc. Mom took into account that my brother and I were probably having sex by a certain age and supplied us (which was a bit awkward actually) with piles of condoms. Imagine the worst teach them and give them the means to have it not reap bad outcomes.

    Yea, that’s that. To say I got a lot going on in my head re: sexuality is an understatement

  59. Hey Audi, i appreciate the time you took to write this. As i said, i didn’t write it to slag ya, just giving you the spin from the other side of the fence regarding how things are viewed, but you already knew that. You’re taking it well and i expected nothing less, i like the way you roll.

    I’m still locked at work so i’ll read all your replies when i get home, i’m sure there’s a lot of depth in there for me to peruse through.

    Enjoy your trip and don’t eat the yellow snow.

  60. @M3 Found you blog last week and I have two points/requests to make:

    1) Your writing is captivating – better than the big boys Roosh, Roissy, Rollo. It’s fresh, like you’re a part of the new generation of thinkers in the manosphere..

    2) Please, for crying out loud, learn to use the apostrophe correctly. You use it wrong like 5-10 times in each post and it’s very distracting.

    A few examples in this post:
    “At it’s core lies this problem” – NO apostrophe needed
    “women tolerating these bit’s of advice” – NO again
    ” weaken past it’s ability to carry the load” – aaaagh!
    “FWB’s and cohabitting” – I give up.


  61. Comment of the year (i know it’s early but)

    Hey look! ^^^ i got it right eh!

    Yeah, i tend to just hammer the keyboard and not really uber cautious with my use of punctuation. i’m sure you see 1,000 more commas than required… and… tons… of… period breaks. It happens when you just let your (whew) brain just pour out.

    But duly noted, i will try to keep all my gramatical nazi readership happy in the future!

    And thanks again for the comments. You’re the best 😀 lol (ya i went there)

  62. @M3

    You also don’t have NEAR enough happy, fluffy, frolicking, rainbow kittens.

    Fixed it for you!

  63. Don’t make me ban you :\

    lol! Do not turn my hardened mancave into your own personal den of fluffiness.

    I have a feeling Vicomte is going to stroll through here any minute and quip his wit.

  64. @M3

    If I get a time out like he did, can I go watch “Geek Love”, too? I’m almost finished with Season 5 of “Big Bang Theory”, so I’ll need something new to watch…


  65. You’re in time out.

    Enjoy – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_IT_Crowd

  66. Oooh, a new geeky sitcom.
    And there was much rejoicing!


  67. I don’t really know who to describe it.. i’m fully into the redpill, completely digested. But as i always say, i’m a guy in between two worlds. The 36 yr old in me who watches the decline and welcomes it and simply uses enough of the redpill to make my way unscathed and enjoy my time, whether with strippers, going my own way, or running a small harem of single moms. It’s for me to run out the clock as i see fit. Marriage is off the table, so is any house/white picket fence or 2.5 kids, a dog and a ford fiesta. I’m happy where i am with a cold beer doing my thing. I don’t have to practice what i preach.

    The other part of my writing is just that. Preaching. I don’t have to practice it, i’ve removed myself from the society i don’t care much for anymore. I don’t see it continuing.. BUT i’ll put the advice out there anyways, advice ME 18 years ago could have used, and advice women need to hear from men they won’t hear from other women. It’s a long shot. As i said, i’m enjoying the decline, i’ll leave to the next generation to surprise me and see if they care enough to right the ship before it capsizes and goes down. If they reject feminism and start accepting biology, gender reality and attempt to return to more of a (yes i know, evil) patriarchal society, maybe there’s hope.

    I truly am at peace with where i’m at and enjoying it, and yes.. i use the pain of my past to help write the future 🙂

  68. well i’m late to this party i see.

    “M3 himself claims he does not want children of his own, so I must ask, why does age matter? Biology is moot in this case, as it is for
    any man that does not want children.”

    i also don’t want children and i’m 39. but the fact is- men have a greater desire for younger women. men ALWAYS find youth and beauty as priamry attraction qualities.

    i’ll take a 23 year old 7 over a 32 year old 9 anytime. this is why i tell men to just get through their 20’s. once in their 30’s their dating field gets wider and wider. the opposite id true for women.

    sadly, women have been deluded into thinking that a marriage will just happen whenever she’s ready. but the fact is, most women squander thier prime attractive years and find themselves in the late 20’s early 30’s with few oprtions. hypergamy only adds to their problem.

    you seem cool, so i wish you the best of luck.

  69. Now that I think of it, I have a question related to what Danny504 pointed out…

    How are women taught to be hypergamous? Is it the schools, the parents, the friends, media/magazines, or something I’m not even recognizing as a “teaching source”?

  70. […] Is it fair? No, but life isn’t fair. Deal with what you have. […]

  71. @Anna,

    Women are naturally hypergamous and seek to find the best provider.

    Although the idea is reinforced by the culture. The expectation to marry up, to marry someone who will keep you in the manner I which you will become accustomed etc.

    it isn’t actually the problem IMO, it is when it is mixed with the bond destroying effects if promiscuity tht you will ave a problem.

    Although the effect of higher graduation rates from college for women (even for worthless degrees) does create an expectation to marry someone at least as well educated. Which will soon be a problem. I will never forget the article about chinese women bemoaning the fact that they couldn’t find a man. They were all well educated women with Masters degrees+ if I remember rightly. It made me chuckle as it set the stage fr what western women will soon experience.

  72. Anna-

    it’s nothing that’s taught. it’s just something inherent in most women to not partner up with a man lower than her on the socio-economic ladder.

    i have a female i know. 32, MBA, six figure job. she can’t land a date to save her life. the men SHE WANTS, are passing on her because they can pull a 23 year hottie. and let me mention she flirted HEAVILY with me when her and i lived close, but flaked twice so i just quit and started dating a woman i spent a year with.

    when my friend mentioned her prediciment it was the typical- “i don’t get it, i’m educated, traveled, great job. WHY can’t i find a man?” i told her.

    “because none of that impresses a MAN. you need a girlfriend.”

  73. @Jason

    I’m still just a freak then…I’ve never experienced the hypergamy or solipsism that is supposedly “innate” in us females. I am not saying that to be a special snowflake, it is simply a fact of my life.
    I’ve always really, truly, honestly believed in equality (not that it exists, but that it’s possible for it to exist) for the sexes. I actually *enjoy* helping people, whether it’s donating to the food pantry, sending money to the Wounded Warrior Project, buying blankets for the SPCA, or even giving a meal to a random homeless person I meet at Gencon. I actually don’t think that I’m special at all, and if I have to go without a meal so another can have one or I work a double so my coworker can go see his child’s dance recital…that’s a “sacrifice” I happily make.

    Imagine my dismay as I grew older and saw that people don’t usually act this way. People in general seem to be very greedy, with not only their money, but also their time, possessions, love…it is as though they believe that only THEY matter. And yes, I do see it more in women than I do men (but you guys arent completely off the hook).

    I just don’t GET it. Why are my fellow women hypergamous? I understand that it may be an evolutionary trait that emerged due to the length of the human pregnancy/child rearing stage…but there are other traits that we’ve risen beyond. Humans have rational, thinking minds that remain basically unmatched in the rest of the animal kingdom. Even if we make the argument that I’ve “subconsciously” gotten rid of my solipsism/hypergamy due to events in my life…why haven’t others?

    Oy. Sometimes I wonder if I’m a genetic chimera or something. I know I have higher testosterone levels than most females, but it’s not THAT high. Maybe it’s because I never wanted marriage or kids? Did the desire to remain single in this life “ruin” me?

  74. Anna,
    actually, you can “rise beyond” hypergamy, as well as other normal human traits. It’s called trauma… Not saying you are traumatized, or that it’s always bad to be traumatized in some way, but that is what I think. Might return and say more on this, after my exam is done.

  75. @Emma

    You’re more right about me than you think. But I’ll be @ work from 10am-9pm today trying to beat our new POS inventory into something usable…so don’t think I’m brushing you off if I don’t respond today.

    I’m very interested in what you have to say!

  76. @Anna

    Hypergamy happens naturally. It was the imposition of rules, doctrines, religion and shaming that kept it at bay like a dam.

    Feminism chipped away at that dam. That’s what is meant by the use of ‘unrestrained hypergamy’.

    Women want the best men. Women compete against other women for those men. Without assortive mating and following hookup/slut culture script, in today’s age where a majority of men are deemed unattractive, hypergamy dictates that women will fight dirty amongst themselves (slut behavior) to try and win over the few worthy candidates at the top.

    Magazines / media are mostly female driven and part of the intersexual competition. Most men couldn’t give a rats ass about fashion or designer labels. It’s you girls fighting amongst yourselves to establish a hierarchy of who deserves the best.

  77. Anna-

    If you have decided that you don’t want to be married and have kids, ther’s nothing wrong with that.

    I’m speaking about the majority of women who DO want marriage and kids.

  78. […] The alternate title of this post was “Everything i said in my Last post summed up in 2 pictures…“ […]

  79. I once wrote a small post on this ( http://emmatheemo.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/how-to-tone-down-your-hypergamy-any-ideas/ ), because someone asked me how I think hypergamy could be lowered. It’s quite horrible, but might work. I know, because some of it worked for me. In my adolescence, I moved to another country, and for the longest time had no close friends, no real parenting and wasn’t fitting in. Many people wouldn’t consider that traumatic, but I think long-term, low intensity unpleasantness can change you as much as short, intense unpleasantness. It lead me to appreciation of omegas and all sorts of low-status betas.. Even though as a child and younger teenager, I liked the same boys everyone liked.

    But despite that, I don’t think you can just convince yourself not to be hypergamous. To change that, some violence has to be done to your nature. Usually it’s not a good thing, but sometimes might not be so bad.

  80. M3, I made a comment and I think it went to spam. It had a (relevant) link though. Can it be rescued?

    [M3: Rescue… i’m doin it right!]

  81. Thanks a lot 🙂

  82. Where do, what might be described as, neurotic, needy, medicated, destructive/disruptive (Glenn Close’s “Alex Forrest” from the film “Fatal Attraction”) type women fall into the spectrum of fairness, laws of nature and game and value? Do PUA’s have any, avoid, or ‘don’t bang crazy’ rules, no mater what the age of value?

  83. @Anna,

    A couple of thoughts. I don’t think the data is conclusive on whether you are hypergamous or not. I’m not sure even Emma’s observation about how to “lower hypergamy” is even correct. At least not if I understand the basic concept correctly.

    If you are not looking for a mate this doesn’t mean you aren’t hypergamous it just means that you aren’t selecting a mate. Not being hypergamous is part of the mate selection process. If you are not selecting a mate that doesn’t demonstrate anything. Actually it could demonstrate or suggest lots of things, but on the question of hypergamy it is inconclusive.

    Likewise Emma in “looking at lesser men” is still being hypergamous because she was still no doubt seeking the best mate she could get.

    To not be hypergamous would require that a woman deliberately and consciously seek out a mate she regards as inferior while passing over mates she finds superior that she is actually able to land.

    As M3 noted, hypergamy isn’t the problem as such. It is this natural female desire to make the best deal possible in mate selection, combined with unrealistic expectations and promiscuous sex that cause all the problems.

    Women have always and will always be hypergamous when looking for a mate. The problem is when this instinct is not channeled and controlled and allowed to go feral.

  84. […] | Filed under: Alpha, Girl distractions, Uncategorized, Wisdom |Leave a comment » M3 currently has a post positing on “fairness” in the SMP. Ian has a GREAT post that ALL you […]

  85. I don’t have any sympathy. Why? Not because of all the indignities they inflicted in the past. But because a 35+ year old single woman is still doing it, and could solve their own problem in 10 seconds.

    How? Simple.

    Log on to OKCupid. Open the search screen. Scroll your little mouse over to the “height” criteria. Then set a MAXIMUM of 5’5.

    Any woman who does that could have a flood of good, decent guys to date who have only a single flaw. Those guys are the discard pile – no women want them, and they’re being rejected for something totally superficial and shallow. They’d gladly jump at the chance to finally get a date.

    And if she refuses – why should you have sympathy? She’s clearly still shallow. Youth is just as important to men as height is to women. You want to ask men to settle on a major criteria of attractiveness to them and accept you for the person you are? Well, ladies first.

  86. “Likewise Emma in “looking at lesser men” is still being hypergamous because she was still no doubt seeking the best mate she could get. ”

    No, EVERYONE tries to get the best mate they can get. Duh. Men pick sex partners less discriminately, but wives more carefully (being the gatekeepers of commitment and all that). Are you saying men are hypergamous, because they try to get the best mate they can get?

    “To not be hypergamous would require that a woman deliberately and consciously seek out a mate she regards as inferior while passing over mates she finds superior that she is actually able to land. ”

    And when did men ever do this? I’m not seeing men pass hotties for fatties, deliberately fucking women they are less attracted to. I don’t know of anyone who would do this, except one guy, whos morals tell him his physical preferences are shallow, so he gave his love to a somewhat unattractive woman. But in general, this isn’t innate to anybody.

    Perhaps we need to remind ourselves about what hypergamy is, and what it isn’t. It is usually two things. One is wanting a partner better than yourself (for example taller, smarter, richer, with some status and strength, ambitions), another is trading up when the opportunity arrives. Here’s the reason why men are not this: 1)They don’t care about a woman’s status, wealth, how buff she is or how tall she is. 2)Their cheating doesn’t lead to breaking up/attempting to trade up quite as much – they would rather keep both women.

  87. Forgot one thing. Hypergamy is also trying to get a mate above your SMV/MMV, that figure being measured in different ways for men and women.

  88. @M3

    Rules, caveats, cautions about to bang or not bang an attractive but destructive crazymaker? Easy to get i,n hard to get out without carnage I would think.

  89. So between the trauma/abuse I went through for nearly 8 years AND the fact I’ve never looked for a mate AND that I’m extremely happy in my egalitarian relationship…all are factors that boil down to me not having/showing hypergamous traits.

    Or, at least, that’s what it sounds like.

  90. Does qualifying a female include sorting out potentially immature basket-cases from balanced healthy well adjusted ones? The commentary here is focused on age and youth and other reasonable values and conditions, but what about person who is amazing in bed but falls apart and can’t handle actual relationship with other human beings and are just not able to navigate human involved intimate relationships? This seems missing from this discussion. Is there a sane—–crazy value spectrum used to avoid becoming entangled with medicated out of control fatal attractions?

    Or are alpha’s and beta’s always ready to just throw caution to the wind when it comes to getting their hands on high quality tits and ass?

  91. “Or are alpha’s and beta’s always ready to just throw caution to the wind when it comes to getting their hands on high quality tits and ass?”

    Alpha’s throw caution to the wind and get their hands on a quality piece of t&a knowing they have options and do not need to deal with the crazy aftermath. They’re also fairly good at not getting blinded by the hotness and actively avoiding true fatal stab you crazy.

    Beta’s throwing caution to the wind because of scarcity mentality and white knight rescue mentality. They are like women who try to ‘fix’ badboys by loving them hard enough to be good people. Beta/Omega men want to love the ‘crazy’ out of these women and show them ‘another world’.

    Rescue. You’re doing it wrong. Save a puppy, not hawt psychotic slut.

  92. How does one get one’s hands on a quality piece of t & a and not deal with the crazy aftermath? It sees unavoidable.

    And not getting blinded sounds all fine and good In theory and one hopes one’s radar is working enough to not mess with a needy medicated kook in sheep’s clothing, but in the face of locking down some new big healthy knockers and long legs bathed in Obsession perfume, and good exciting new sex, do alphas really discriminate, like really? Does the sex drive not trump all in actual practice?

    Also in actual practice the pull to rescue and be a knight instinct is thousands of years old and works on a man till he submits to it no? The only alphas I see avoiding crazies are the ones who have gotten burnt enough times and can no longer afford the cost of crazy, no matter how fine the ass.

  93. Also how might you define a crazy non starter? What “aftermath” would you call a reason not to engage an other wise high value female?

  94. Crazy gives off thousands of red flags if you give it enough time to. That’s why time is important. You don’t rush into things and allow crazy to show.

    There is quality t&a that isn’t crazy, but there does appear to be a curve where the hotter one gets, the greater percentage chance of there being crazy.

    Simply hold your frame, remain Alpha, don’t commit and let them work to qualify. Crazy will manifest during this phase of time. Belligerence, stalking, entitlement, severe jealousy, bitterness, hostility, princess attitudes.. they all come out in the wash rather quickly if you just hold your frame and maintain a ‘they qualify to me’ attitude.

    Alpha’s enjoy sex.. but they’re not willing to tolerate crazy to keep it, hence spinning plates. Crazy shows up.. NEXT. As a MGTOW im immune, i don’t care for chasing poon enough deal with batshit crazy for a tap, i nix it in the discovery phase.

    The white knight rescue instinct is part nature (female protection) and part social contrived shit, pedestatlize and win the woman over by showing love. Wrong frame. You don’t win a woman over by showing love, weak useless supplicating love. You win her over by making yourself something SHE wants to be with and fight for, because hypergamy demands she get the best man that other women want. Ergo, if she fights and wins your love, it connotes value. She landed her man, one worthy of pumping her full of cocksnot and making a sexy son.

    Hold that frame, make her qualify for you (make sure you work at being someone worth qualifying to) and you will always pick out the crazies with ease and keep only the good ones without the need for lifepreservers to rescue crazy women from the sea of their own misfortune.

  95. “What “aftermath” would you call a reason not to engage an other wise high value female?”

    High value females by definition are not crazy to begin with.

    Don’t mistake HB for HV 😛

  96. A definition of crazy and undesirable aftermath would be helpful coming from a Jedi like yourself. You gotta admit that a high value woman might not show her crazy till it is too late? How do you know when you have let a crazy maker into your world?

  97. Yes, “stalking, entitlement, bitterness, hostility” are the ones I want to avoid like the plague. Thanks for going into detail.

    I see too many guys trying to shed crazies and wonder why why waded into that pool in the first place. I just concluded it was not enough distinctions on what to look for, coupled with blinded by new T and . A

  98. Corrected version:

    Yes, “stalking, entitlement, bitterness, hostility” are the ones I want to avoid like the plague. Thanks for going into detail.

    I see too many guys trying to shed crazies and wonder why THEY allowed a crazymaker \ wade into their pool in the first place. I just concluded it was not enough distinctions on what to look for, coupled with blinded by new T. and A.

  99. Does a woman being on certain psychiatric medication(s) lower her value, or even make her a non-starter for an alpha male?

  100. Blacky:

    I’m a married guy but in my premarital days I saw my share of crazy.

    Here are some signs you might be dealing with a girl who’s a bit….. OFF, shall we say.

    1. She escalates rapidly to sex. Total freak in bed. (This doesn’t necessarily mean she is nuts. she might just be totally into you.)

    2. She lies a lot about her past, I don’t mean little lies. I mean you’re catching her lying about pretty much everything — her family, her past BFs, her job, her stuff, etc.

    3. She gives you expensive gifts – on the first date.

    4. She is texting/calling you 30 times a day (not an exaggeration).

    5. After the first date she is telling everyone you are her boyfriend.

    6. She escalates very rapidly to emotional intimacy. She’s TOO trusting. By the second or third week she is telling you about all her problems, her deepest insecurities, her daddy issues, etc.

    7. She insists on monopolizing all your free time. Wants to be with you all the time. Insists on knowing where you are all the time.

    8. She has no female friends.

    9. She has a terrible or nonexistent relationship with her father.

    10. her past is littered with terrible boyfriends who horribly mistreated her. To hear her tell it, no man has ever, ever treated her well, ever.

  101. There is also the belligerence, stalking, entitlement, severe jealousy, bitterness, hostility manifest and rear it’s head during the break up phase, or once the woman has not measured up to the alpha males standards. A woman may try and burn down your home, dump garbage in and key your car and stalk you and your new love interests if they are not aligned with “it’s over”. This is where the murders, suffering and aftermath is amped up. How can one see that behaviour far ahead to not be involved with that?????? ‘

    “Hangover” director Todd Phillips was recently harassed by a crazy hottie he met on a film shoot and took to bed. Is pursuing seemingly high quality T and A just inherently risky?

  102. @deti

    A great list of indicators. thnx. Would you add, on psychiatric medication(s) to that list?

  103. “Does a woman being on certain psychiatric medication(s) lower her value, or even make her a non-starter for an alpha male?”

    Definitely lowers her value for an alpha. Most alphas will not bother with this type of woman. If they discover she takes psychotropic meds or is in therapy they will often next her, except for a pump and dump.

    But if she is hot enough, this kind of woman will be able to get male attention, no problem, even if she is crazy. The general rules seems to be: The hotter you are, the more crazy you can get away with. But if you’re not so hot, you won’t get away with crazy.

  104. I would add also to the list: This is a biggie, too:]

    11. Violent mood swings. Really upbeat one day; really depressed the next.

    12. Gets violently angry. Prone to physical violence. Hits you when angry. Throwing, breaking things when angry. Arguments quickly escalate to physical violence and go completely out of control.

  105. The thing about a woman being on psych meds or in psychotherapy: This is not something you’re going to find out until you’re well into a relationship with the woman.

  106. @ deti

    What about excessive crying or signs depression – I assume these 13. and 14? When is an ok time to ask a woman if she is on psychotropic meds? before or after jumping into bed? I would not hesitate to ask early on, but if there is a light fun way to raise this question, I have yet to find it.

  107. The hotter one is the more crazy one can get away with and for longer. So true. But what a fatal, risky, costly, time consuming reality.

  108. Signs of depression: maybe. Excessive crying: No. Some girls are just like that.

    There is no good time or good way to ask if a girl has mental issues or is taking psych meds. You just have to suss it out for yourself.

    Hot and crazy, to me, ain’t worth it. But then, I’m really not alpha either. I’m a greater beta at my very best.

  109. I dated a talented actress once, the woman was hot, Mensa smart, like a genius but she cried at night for no reason that I could discern, she leaned too heavily on red wine most evenings, for my liking, in addition to her meds, and one day I went over and she had torn up a diary she had been keeping, on our dating life, into a pile of small pieces because she feared we were going to break up. At that moment, I looked at the pile of ripped pieces of paper and I knew I was not willing or able to be the caretaker for a person in her state. It was, unfortunately, over.

  110. Whew, deti’s list is pretty comprehensive.
    I guess I should count myself lucky that only 2 of those apply to me! 😉

  111. #15.? Never let go of the past or events no matter how much time has gone by. Like the crazy flawed villains in all the James Bond stories.

  112. #16 on the don’t bang crazy list: a woman who makes her attachment to a romantic involvement the centre of her world and reduces the value of everything else and trashes/harms herself if the alpha or beta does not see the involvement the same way as she imagines it should be.

  113. What extremes in behaviour = a high value woman and what extremes are a s sign of crazy?

  114. I respectfully disagree with deti…Excessive crying is NOT normal for anyone, ever. If you meet some man/woman/child who cries at the drop of a hat, there are much deeper and/or urgent problems they are dealing with. To say that “some women are just like that” is incorrect, the same as saying that “some men are just like that” if they are known to punch a wall every weekend.

    In both cases, issues need to be dealt with.

  115. Anna,
    I think deti is right – some women are like that.

  116. @Emma the Emo

    There are definitely women who are moved easy and who display their vulnerability in a wonderful way and it is usually obvious when one is dealing with a women who is just generous and open like that. But there are no women in any of the circles I inhabit that cry themselves to sleep or cry in ways that seem inappropriate to those around them, women who look lost in their emotion and behave like a scared 4 year old. That is a different situation altogether.

  117. @Blacky
    That is exactly what I’m saying. There is a huge difference between being open with your emotions and just crying all the time.

  118. I know a woman who cries when a homework assignment is too hard.

  119. @mma the Emo

    usually we know when a person is off. we can are are talking about people who we become concerned about and have the impression something s off.

  120. […] ..why aren’t women ‘dating down’ and choosing betas/deltas/gammas/omega shlubs at the height of their power when they’re young? […]

  121. […] 2. Deti’s comments are devastatingly spot on: […]

  122. […] me, now and then. Don’t get me wrong I love the shit out of him, he isn’t any kind of a settlement or consolation prize for me and it wasn’t always like this. If anything I am his settlement/consolation prize if that is […]

  123. […] entire first half of her life having all the power. Now she will watch as it begins to slip away. Is It Fair? Evolution seems to think […]

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