Turning down a NiceGuy/LJBF the proper way

February 11, 2013

Con’t from my last post.

I’m assuming i have a female audience. I may be delusional. Help me out at the end and answer my poll.


Have a man in your orbit who wont take the hint? Have a puppy dog humping your leg and you just can’t shoo him away because you like it’s company? You wanna let a guy down who’s obviously attracted to you but is not attractive? Just don’t know what to say?


Be downright brutal if you have to.

Tell him the true nature of what women want. Tell him he’s been lied to. He’ll protest. He’ll say his mom, his teachers, other girls, all tell him it’s what’s on the inside that counts.


He may very well be absolutely awesome on the inside.. but that’s not the issue now is it! It’s that he’s not attractive. You shouldn’t tell him that what’s on the inside doesn’t matter.. of course it does! This is what separates a decent human being from sociopaths. Simply telling him what’s on the inside doesn’t matter is a sure fire way to send him down the dark path.. as Vader did.. and he will become an agent of evil. A supplicating niceguy.

But you have to make it clear that it is not enough simply to be good on the inside. Being nice to your mom and helping ladies across the street are good traits, but they ain’t fucking attractive in getting the lower lips moist, if ya know what imma sayin. And being good at D&D and knowing how to speak Klingon in the original tongue are admirable to be sure, but the pool of women who’d be willing to cook you a plate of G’agh and serve it to you in a maid’s outfit is severely limited. And let’s not forget that being pasty white and seeing your bones sticking through your skin don’t exactly scream ‘primal savage’.

So be fucking brutally honest OK? Promise me. Do it smart, point out the flaws that need fixing, and explain why if necessary. A majority of guys will absorb it and mull it over if done in a logical fashion rather than a plea to his emotions which are already all over the map at this point. Logic shall ground them, hit them with some fucking redpill!

Guys learn through failure when they are presented with a cause to overcome.

Aim Gun > Shoot > Look at Target > Hole to the Right > Aim Gun More Left > Shoot > Repeat till Bullseye.

Guys learn by doing, but they require immediate feedback, cause and effect to know what’s working and what isn’t. Many women refuse to let the ’cause’ be known, so all the guy see’s is ‘effect’ of not being chosen, thus attributing it to “girls dont like nice.. so ill be a dick”.

And another douche-bag dark triad jersey shore cock is born.

Even Hobbits go douche when Friendzoned for too long.

What girls really need to do is put on their big girl panties and say:

“Look, you really do have a lot to offer someone, but you have to develop yourself into something that makes us want you just like you feel for the cute/hawt girl you see right away without knowing who she really is. It’s great that you hold doors, want to hang out, and listen to us, but we need to feel the same way you guys feel. Your problem is X, Y and Z.

Girls seem to have an aversion to telling a guy what to fix because they assume that the guy will fix every enumerated item on the list she gives, hoping that this is *her* list, and that fixing it (bandaiding) will make him attractive in the eyes of the girl  he’s soliciting advice from. As long as it’s stated “Now i’m not telling you this stuff with the intention that it will work on me, im telling you so you can improve yourself to be more attractive to the general female population.”

Sit him down and show him 2 pictures of 2 women. One fat, one skinny. Tell him both will love him, both will cook and clean for him, both will enjoy having sex with him. Now choose, which would you rather have. Even if the hotter one gives you more grief and aggravation, you will still choose her because your attraction to her makes her negative qualities more forgivable. For men, it’s visual mostly. For women, it’s attitude and how you carry yourself, it’s what you’re capable of doing, and yes, looks still play a factor (sexy son theory). But overall, they need more than just looks, especially if they weren’t genetically gifted to look like Brad Pitt. Biologically, if they get shafted with 9 months of gestation.. they want the best thing growing in them.

It’s why really good looking guys without game still can’t get laid often. Tell him he needs to start working on himself, to make it so that he’s not trying to impress women, but that women will simply be impressed by how he lives and operates. He will not be qualifying to them consciously, they will simply gravitate towards him and force them to qualify to him. This way he can avoid the hot, but tragic meltdown freaks that will only cause misery in his life.

[I’m not giving you the PUA line of learning Game to get in and out p&d style. I’m saying become someone people look up to respect and admire. Then use that as a jump off point and calibrate to the type of woman you’re looking for. If all you want is sex, go PUA. But most beta guys would be best served learning inner game, self development and having women qualify for meaningful relationships.. providing you are self aware enough to avoid becoming a supplicant again]

And there’s no place better to start than the gym or a martial art. The time and dedication necessary to change your body and your mind to overcome those obstacles will instill a pride and confidence within you to carry you through other ventures in life. You don’t just ‘get’ confident. It grows over time with success and repetition. And women notice muscles on a subconscious level.


Make damn well sure he knows that nothing.. NOTHING you advise him to do will be specific towards winning you over. In fact, if you must embellish, DO SO. Explain to him in vivid detail that not every person is for everyone. You may like people with round heads, or small eyeballs.. etc. If your friend-zone is blond, tell him you prefer brunettes. Anything just to get him to stop fawning over you in a hopeless quest.

And don’t forget to send him to the sphere.

Keep in mind you *may* lose the friendship altogether. You have to expect it. If he has lingering feelings for you, your friendship will be both awkward and false. The best thing you can do is actively help him start talking to other women, be his wing-man, play him up. The sooner he starts seeing someone else, the quicker his feelings for you will evaporate. The length of the loss can range from permanent, to until he finds someone, to just a short while during which he stews in his own juices while absorbing the “truth” you’ve opened his eyes to.

Beware.. if you successfully wing him towards another woman, you will also have to deal with diminished time and resource allocation from him. He’s pouring all his resources where they need to be, and you are now taking a back seat until he’s established and secure. You may even come to be jealous that you’re no longer #1, especially if he starts to become more confident. But the pay-off is immense. The longer he remains with someone, the more his confidence will carry him and he’ll appreciate you at this point TRULY as a FRIEND for helping him out. Gone will be his supplicating NiceGuy friendship trying to win your heart, replaced by real appreciative friendship of you being there guiding him out of a dark place when he had no light.

Tho if you can’t wing him, or have any friends to wing him to.. you must at the very least break off ties with him for his own good. He might not have the heart to be able to. Lord knows i couldn’t.. not for a long time, not when it actually mattered. But today is a new day.

But whatever you do…

*don’t* tell him to “just be more confident!”


  1. Several issues here and why this path wont work:

    A woman perceives a man through his actions, but she’s not perceiving the actions as such. She perceives the actions as something that reveals the nature of the guy.

    The guy might be “doing” beta stuff and making himself unattractive, but she wont perceive the doing, she will perceive the unattractive. She will see that he’s flawed. She wont see what he’s doing wrong, she will see that HE is wrong.

    Men are more mechanical and separate the being from the behavior. We know we do A and get to B and that there’s nothing really, for us, as this “true self” since the whole thing for us is how to get from A to B. How to achieve the goal. We’re going to overcome and do shit and take whatever actions are necessary.

    Women dont see the world that way. It’s more basic. You either have or you dont have it. If you have it, then no actions, nothing really is going to change that, nothing can take what you have away. Similarly, if you dont have it, nothing that you do can get you there.

    This means that if she finds the guy unattractive, she’s not going to feel that he can become more attractive with doing. If she goes to tell him what he’s doing wrong, this looks from her point of view as telling him what he needs to do to get her.

    And she’s only going to tell you / give you hints about what you have to do to get her if she already finds you attractive.

    The honest truth that she could say would be: you’re not good for me, you’re not attractive enough, you’re beneath of me. Which is blunt and would make her look like a bitch. It’s overt communication, something girls suck at. If she’s got to the point where she actually has to tell you “friends only” is because you missed all her previous cues that she’s not interested. That she wants other kind of arrangement or nothing at all.

    In the case she goes and tells you your flaws, it’s still not about the actions, it’s about the being.

    They are looking for seeds. If the seed is quality they can work with it and work on the little details of your actions, “be more considerate” and stuff. If the quality is not there there’s no “be more considerate” that is going to work.

    * * *

    Of course we know this isnt the whole story or game wouldnt be here and it wouldnt work. Girls ARE triggered by actions, and any man can perform them. But when a man performs these actions, that’s not what she’s looking at. She’s looking at the person.

  2. And being good at D&D and knowing how to speak Klingon in the original tongue are admirable to be sure, but the pool of women who’d be willing to cook you a plate of G’agh and serve it to you in a maid’s outfit is severely limited.

    This line made me LOL so hard!

    And thanks for the linkage, though maybe I should take out the part of the comment about having to send my kids next door so we could – ahem – do the deed. You know how shy and reserved I am about discussing sex. hehehe

  3. Yohami – you make it sound like neither women nor men can ever change, or change their mind about other people….

  4. Hey! My man is good at D&D, can speak some Klingon, has read every Harry Potter book, collects little metal miniatures, and teaches people how to work with modern technology in a business setting.I can honestly say that I’ve NEVER served him G’agh in a maid’s out fit though. The very idea is simply ridiculous, no matter HOW geeky you are.

    I was wearing a bar wench’s outfit, and serving him a meal from a Game of Thrones cookbook. 😉

  5. Observer, of course we can change, we can do it through actions, and through self reflecting. But Im talking about perception.

    Women perceive the nature of things and what’s behind the actions, not the actions. They dont see “this other woman is doing something irritating” they see “she’s a bitch”, “he’s a jerk”, “he’s not work my time” etc. The process of screening is about the inner value of the person. The actions the other people trigger emotional buttons on them, and whatever emotions they experience, are the “truth” about that other person – not just about the actions of that person.

    Guilt vs shame. Actions vs self. Women are attuned with the self, men are attuned with the actions.

  6. * “he’s not [worth] my time”

  7. I do have a gender, you meany pants!!!!

    I only sit when I pee so I don’t make a mess….

  8. More women need to know this. Good post.

  9. @Yohami

    You know, I’ve noticed this a lot when talking to other women…they really DO seem to focus less on the actions of a person, and more on how the person makes them feel. Gods above, this made me lose so many frickin’ female friendships in middle and high school when I pointed it out!

    Why do you think there is such a discrepancy?

  10. Yohami, you make some good points. I think it would be an extremely rare unattached woman who could or would say such things to an orbiter. I could, and would, say such things, but not necessarily to MY orbiters. (For one thing, I don’t have any! Also I’m pushing 50, overweight, and happily married.)

    There is an awful lot for a woman to overcome in that situation – understanding the mechanics (most women simply don’t) and also having the guts to initiate that awkward conversation where both parties acknowledge that one party has an unrequited crush (even a mild one.) She may not want to sleep with him, but she probably doesn’t want to humiliate him either, or even hear his denial.

    M3, I’d say this is really good advice for women to give to OTHER women’s orbiters.

  11. I think this might be a good idea, but hard to put in practice. In the past, when a guy liked me and I didn’t like him back, I just wanted the whole thing to be over as quickly as possible. I can’t tell a guy “I’m not attracted to you cuz you’re black”, can I?

    How about guys who try to kiss or touch too quickly? Some PUAs say it’s better to overdo it than underdo it. So I think I’ll just keep quiet.
    But if a supplicating niceguy comes along.. I know what to say 😉

  12. Damn, yer batting .1000. Yohami NEVER comments on my site, you copped. Threefur. Good on yah.

    Pinche Yohami. Lol.

  13. Anna: “You know, I’ve noticed this a lot when talking to other women…they really DO seem to focus less on the actions of a person, and more on how the person makes them feel.
    Why do you think there is such a discrepancy?”

    It’s biologically based. The person who gives birth to the brood has to be perceptive. Unfortunately, women generally don’t know exactly what they are perceiving or why the are perceiving it. It’s more a ‘vibe’, usually so subtle they don’t piece it together (microexpressions, ect).

    M3: Jersey Shire! I love it! lol. And I am definitely female…but I seem predisposed to squeeze out only little baby males. 🙂

  14. Just to continue, after contemplation…I think this makes it very difficult to ascertain exactly what the female finds objectionable. Most of the time, she doesn’t know. It isn’t just a behavior, it’s the whole ‘vibe’. And critiquing and offering advice is along the lines of ‘be successful’. I once dated a person who was very good looking and seemed to do everything right…he just didn’t do it for me. We got along great, just like a very close brother and sister. I couldn’t have said what the problem was exactly at the time or offer pointers. Left him for a military guy (even though I swore I’d never marry military, and I was a PETA granola girl at the time), who didn’t at first even seem attractive but quickly became the most beautiful man in the world in my estimation (and remains so). Again, I can’t pinpoint exactly why he’s successful he just ‘is’ and ‘does it for me’.

  15. @Liz

    “…but I seem predisposed to squeeze out only little baby males.”
    Well, this has far less to do with your biology, and more with your husband’s, lol.

    And maybe he’s more attractive to you because of his scent? A study I read of in my Human Sexuality course years ago found that women can pick up subtle pheromones on a male and not even be conscious they’re doing it. Interestingly, the majority of women found that the most “attractive” scents were from men with very different immune systems…ones that, if combined with their own, would produce relatively healthier kids. Perhaps THIS is why you like him so much?

  16. @Liz (again)

    People/customers think that I *must* be a PETA member because I’m an ovo-lacto vegetarian, Wiccan, and very good with our fellow animals…I most certainly am NOT, but their opinions always make me laugh. 🙂

  17. @Anna, yes I think scent is a big one. Even when I’m very angry with him, I want him near me.

  18. @Liz

    I’ve never been angry with my lover (most likely because of the type of relationship we have), so I can’t really talk about that.

    That is very interesting though…when I’m angry with someone, I remove myself from the room/area until I can cool down. It has helped to defuse a few situations, I’ll say that much!

  19. Flashbacking through every woman from my youth who didn’t do this…

  20. The only reason this wouldn’t work is that women cannot do this, and even if they could, they wouldn’t want to.

    What M3 describes is one way a male friend would go about telling his male friend about what he’s doing wrong. I mean, don’t get me wrong: there are a lot of men who need to hear this; it’s just that this isn’t going to come from women. It’s going to come from a good male friend who is good enough to his buddy to sit him down and tell him.

    And that’s why it wouldn’t work: because, like Yohami said, most women can’t identify what it is he’s doing wrong; they just know he’s not attractive to them. You can ask women why they don’t like a guy; and you’ll get answers like this:

    –“I don’t know, I just don’t like him.”
    –“he’s kinda creepy.”
    –“he’s not my type.”
    –“There’s something about him I just don’t like.”

    They can’t pinpoint why they don’t like him or aren’t attracted to him; they just know they don’t or they aren’t. It’s because women aren’t as good at analysis, or breaking down a thing into its parts to see how one component fits into a whole apparatus.

    Also, like Yohami said, women view a man not about how he is, but how he makes her feel. And their analysis starts and ends there — how she feels. How she feels when she is with him; how she feels about him, how and what she feels in general.

    By contrast, men break down a thing into its component parts so they can find out how the whole thing works and how a part makes a thing work. So they do this with women, other men, intergender relationships, everything.

    One of men’s greatest strengths is also one of his greatest Achilles heels in relationships — his tendency toward analysis causes him to overthink, to calculate constantly. It’s why one of the 16 Commandments is to “Get in touch with her emotions”. When dealing with women it’s important not to overthink, but to appeal to emotion.

  21. While I agree women are not going to do this for one main reason: having LJBF/orbiters SERVES them.

    Of course a girl could tell a guy ‘you are a loser who never turns me on,’ and hearing the truth would possibly turn his life around.

    Instead ‘I think you are awesome, but Im not looking for a relationship right now’ thus the guy doesnt realize he fucked up, and sticks around.

    Girls need emo support as much or more than guys want sex, and orbiters/friends serve this need.

  22. @Erudite Knight

    This. 100% this.

    I see it all the frickin’ time in my store…Cute/bangable young women followed around continuously by their minions. They get showered with attention, food, gifts, etc. And for what? Being the 2% of my demographic who is female! Makes me cringe every time.

    One girl I used to know actually had no fewer than FIVE guys (and more often seven or eight) who basically fell over each other in their pathetic rush to please her. Only one was her boyfriend (the most bad boy/asshole of the group), but all the others would STILL buy her food, shoes, jewelry, drive her around, carry her books…it was sad.

    Then she moved to Missouri to get her Bachelor’s degree…and they all changed back to normal, confident young menfolk with their own lives. Oh, except for the alpha tool. He visits her once a month and still acts like his rule is law. Don’t know why they still hang out with him?

  23. “COME HERE”

    I miss the old MK days.

  24. Great satire!

  25. Yohami has a point, but the reason a woman won’t tell a guy what he’s doing wrong is twofold.

    First, she may not really know what’s “wrong” with him and even if she did know, say he’s a dork who talks in Yoda speak (I had an online guy do that with me, seriously) she isn’t going to point that out because she doesn’t want to hurt his feelings.

    Women have been indoctrinated to not hurt anyone’s feelings, except when they want to be bitches, of course.

    And, btw, M3, you are lookin’ good. Nice guns….er hat.

  26. I must have spent about half of my student loan money playing the MK II machine at the Student Union. It was worth it though.

  27. Some reading for you M3.


    Women can’t really tell a man how to be a man. It’s better for folks like you and the sphere to do it…because we are in fact MEN.

  28. Its pathetic seeing this.
    Truthfully, I am a little surprised your tale didnt end with them moving out to be with her, I see that ‘good ending’ all the time.

  29. You know what?
    I was surprised too…glad it didn’t happen though, as the overwhelming majority of these guys are wonderful in their own right.

  30. This post seems to go right along with what Vox was asking for in the incel post, although not in a way he/she expected I think.

    Nah, I’ll pass on your offer. But I’ll leave you with something to think about. The reason you succeeded or the Alphas you referred to did wad not through trickery, looks, money, game etc… It was honesty. That’s the only bright spot on this post. You were finally honest with yourself about what you wanted, you expressed your want and someone responded to that with a yes. That’s what attracts people: finding people who want what they can give and vice versa.

    But then you presume to judge women for wanting what they want (even when it’s pretty much the same as what you want). You express your own fears of female independence as misogyny and you want to perpetuate those fears among others.

    What you could do is drop the deplorable worldview and enjoy people as people. However you want to express your sexuality is fine as long as you’re honest and you’re not forcing it on someone else.
    by voxnewman February 6, 2013 at 10:46 pm

    That bolded section is where Vox got it entirely wrong, btw. You were not judging women for their desires, only their lies about their desires. The deception, consciously or unintentionally, is what causes that pain.

    Has he come back to commenting here?

  31. Erudite and Anna get it correctly, imho. I hear what you are saying, Yohami, but I find that explanation too complicated and not true in all cases.

    In my core beta days I had a few girls who knew something was wrong, they could see the problems I was having, they observed them directly. But… they were incapable of offering useful advice. Part of the reason their advice was useless to me was my own distorted perception of what women wanted from which I was unable to break free from. But the biggest part of the reason their advice was useless was because of who I was asking advice from.

    Actually, let me pause here and offer the ladies insight into men they may not understand…

    Men, by their own day-to-day physical reality, understand their own intimate desires TO THE DETAIL. We know it all, there is nothing about our own desires that we are not constantly aware of at any given moment of the day. There is nothing about ourselves to discover, by the time we’ve had our first physical reaction, it’s literally crystal clear to us what we want, for the rest of our lives. Bill Cosby has a great bit on this where he calls it the “Good Dreams Fairy” that all boys go through.

    As such, we as men, are generally incapable of believing just how ignorant (especially the young) women are of what they actually want out of a man to help create an intimate romantic relationship. When you tell us what you want out of man, WE TAKE YOU AT YOUR WORD, regardless of how unsure you actually are. It makes no sense to us that another human being could feel like one thing one day, and something entirely different the next day, or be so unsure as to have no answer to the question, “what do you want out of a boyfriend?” Many women stumble on this question, or go the opposite direction and have unrealistic lists as long as Air Force procedure checklists that they’ve spent no time reviewing. It is literally beyond normal comprehension for a man that women don’t automatically know what they want and have it boiled down to a simple, reasonable answer. It actually takes many years to learn this fact on our own, without red-pill assistance.

    So, having said this, the reason these women I knew were incapable of offering advice is simple…

    They hadn’t taken the red pill yet.

    These women were simply, forgive-ably, ignorant of themselves. They had no understanding of their own mating nature and strategies. All they knew is what made them feel better, and they would do whatever was necessary to not feel bad about themselves, including let me continue being beta to them. They knew what made them want to get with a guy, and they knew I wasn’t offering it. But they also knew I was nice, made them feel better about themselves in another way, and they had no intention of removing me from that position by force of truth.

    I forgive the ladies for being ignorant, when they truly are. I do not forgive the advice I was given to give those ladies so much trust that they knew what they were talking about.

  32. Geez, Jeremy…stop being so insightful already! 😉

    You are 100% correct in this. I recently asked 4 of my unmarried male coworkers (separately) what they would eventually want out of a relationship. “Good food, well kept home, lots of sex” was the answer from each of them…2 even went so far as to clarify that “a well kept home just has to be cleaner than the current state of my bedroom”. Given that 1 guy has mentioned that he once found a carton of milk/spoiled yogurt clumps *under his bed*, these are not very exacting standards, lol.

    Now compare this to what my 5 female coworkers said (shortest list had 12 traits on it, all of the lists had a least 1 contradictory trait), and I can totally see what you mean!

  33. @Anna: re:“Good food, well kept home, lots of sex”
    Good food = boiled hotdogs or better. Till we run out of ketchup.
    Well kept home = Yah, what he said.
    Lots of sex = I can boil my own water. With a good pair of boots, I can step over the trash. Oh, right. I can take care of the rest of what I need myself too. ha ha

  34. Haha, I’m not sure too many people would admit to claiming to be the opposite sex, kind of defeats the purpose of the deceit!

    Great article though, and brilliant advice for those (rare?) women who care enough about their male “just friend” to want him to succeed with another woman.

  35. “Tell him the true nature of what women want. Tell him he’s been lied to. He’ll protest. He’ll say his mom, his teachers, other girls, all tell him it’s what’s on the inside that counts.


    He may very well be absolutely awesome on the inside.. but that’s not the issue now is it! It’s that he’s not attractive.”

    Of course attraction is important. Nobody can live a day, what to speak of an entire lifetime, in American culture thinking that “what’s on the inside” is enough or that looks don’t matter.

    Look around you, EVERYWHERE here the externals are what’s important, often at the expense of the internal.

    I don’t know how you managed to grow up in the US without grokking this. Unless you are a foreigner, then I can understand your confusion.

    I guess girls in a sense are lucky because the female form as been objectified, pried and prodded, from day one in TV, ads, films, radio, internet, ALL forms of media, that this message has not gone lost on them.

    But seriously, you really thought looks and attraction don’t matter?!

    Were you heavily involved in a religious cult? Even there looks and charisma are like 75% of success.

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