The Fly on the Wall Reports Back on “Girls Night”. Sluts shame good girls.

January 27, 2013

Before i start this post let me just get a couple small items off my list.

1. To everyone asking about my p90x page. I’m sorry, i’ve just been too damn lazy to put it together because i tried giving advice tips and info… when i should have just put up my damn pics and be done with it. When the page is ready, i’ll announce it.

2. I’ve hit a personal milestone on my adventure with braces. I can run my tongue along my bottom row of teeth and it feels smooth with no gaps. It’s exciting to see and feel results. I can’t wait for the finished product. Don’t ever kid yourself. A great smile is 50% of your confidence. Also, i can slip the little rubber christmas tree brushes between all but 2 of my teeth! Whoohoo!


Ok, with all that out of the way.


Last night i had a 4 hour conversation my friend, the one who lost a shit ton of weight and is on her way to looking stunning again. Let’s call her “E”. In a previous post i mentioned my almost FWB who went by the label of “J” and my exwife “S”. Let’s also add the label “B” to my ex’s close friend. Keep these in mind as i proceed.

I won’t recap the entire discussion, too bloody long. Let’s just say i am really proud with myself for how much RedPill knowledge i’ve acquired, accepted and internalized. The information i was giving her, the way i answered her numerous questions, and the way the pieces ‘just fit’ in explaining how human nature works, startled even myself when i left for home. I gave her the unvarnished truth and didn’t hold back, neither her nor her brother denied or disagreed with much anything i said because everything i stated was backed up by experiences both of them actually had throughout their lives.

I put the puzzle together for them right before their very eyes. They saw the real picture of the world, the way the pieces were meant to fit, not the disjointed, misshapen horror they were looking at when they tried forcing pieces together that were not meant to be joined.

Of course it doesn’t hurt that she’s what i call a natural RedPill ready woman. She’s a traditional type that accepts the male leads/woman follows dynamic, the Captain/1st officer roles. She admits she likes being led. For lack of better terms, she knows she’s RedPill, she just doesn’t understand why.

Although she was absolutely and completely naive about the world of relationships, and carried no real comprehension of what men look for in women, why the behave the way they do (aka taking walks to see the sunset not because we enjoy it ourselves, but part of the imperative that says we have to entertain your interests if we wish to partake in sex down the road), hypergamy, women’s nature, sexual ranks, attraction, the wall, aging, etc. I told her things she certainly didn’t want to hear, but she took it all in stride. She also learned for the first time ever that i went through 12 years without and didn’t even conceive of the possibility that men aren’t able to get sex when they want. (apex fallacy/80/20) She didn’t think men felt emotions during sex, that it was no different than when a guy masturbates. She really held her mind open to listening and i saw the gears turning as she didn’t blow up in emotional hysterics but actually digested the information, connecting dots.

Like the wisdom of the ancients being emptied from the Matrix of Leadership to combat the Hate Plague, she was an empty vessel ready to be re-filled with knowledge and wisdom. Of ancients no less. Wisdom her grandmother and great grandmothers before her held. Wisdom erased by 40+ years of feminist bullshit.

As i said, it was a long, deep and honest conversation.. with revelations about me and my own personal supplicating beta behaviour and the things i did wrong in my marriage. She also volunteered that she was cognisant of the fact that men are visual and knew full well that guys were going to start coming onto her again after 4 years of being obese. It’s because she’s venturing off into the world of dating that she started the whole conversation with me, specifically me because she has found me to be completely honest and cerebral with her, pulling no punches. She REALLY wants to learn. I found out she is very much the traditionalist and that aside from a brief bit of experimenting with which she did not enjoy the outcomes of, she is a low number count woman.

It was somewhere in the middle of this conversation that i was clued in on the fact that she had experienced a “Girls Night’ with her friend, my ex and my ex’s friend. And it was during this night when girls do as they do when they get together that they discuss boys, and sex acts, and how many guys they’ve slept with.

What i heard simply floored me on a visceral level.

These ‘good girls’ that i had envisioned throughout my entire beta life, my entire incel period.. were feeding at the trough with reckless abandon and it became much more sinister than just that. And here was more poor dear low count friend sandwiched amongst these “ladies” when the question turned to how many guys they let access their gates.

“E” told me that she sat there as she heard the number 18 and 60 thrown out (Tho who had which number she didn’t say). When the time came for her to answer, she was hesitant because her number simply couldn’t compare to theirs, so she meekly said “5”.

My ex isn't black. Nor is she 6 years old. You got the point tho right?

My ex isn’t black. Nor is she 6 years old. You got the point tho right?

This was met with an instant call of BULLSHIT from my ex apparently, who then grilled her for the next 5 minutes claiming she HAD TO have slept with more guys than that, trying to get her to fess up. To say it was a pressure filled and emotionally charged experience for “E” would be an understatement. She confessed that after she had a one night stand, she really felt awful about it, especially when the guy really didn’t care about picking up where they left off. She said she felt dirty and didn’t want to do that again.

This is when “B” jumped in and had the audacity to claim that the real reason why “E” couldn’t land and stick a guy was because she was in fact not sleeping around, and that she should sleep with as many guys as possible if she wanted to find that guy who would start a relationship with her. She went on and on about how her finickiness, her making guys wait, her unwillingness to spread her legs on day 1 was the real stumbling block to her getting the man of her dreams.

I just shook my fucking head upon hearing this.

I could see why “E” is confused. “E” is still single and every time she was with a guy in an LTR in the past, none of them ever got to the point of professing love and wanting marriage with her. When i asked her how she escalated.. she gave me a confused look. For her, making a guy wait was blatantly pushing away roving hands, stern responses to any form of sexual advancement, almost a complete shut-down on all counts towards building any kind of intimacy. We finally came to the conclusion whereby she admitted she most likely pushed guys away by not giving any signals of interest even tho deep inside she wanted to tear their clothes off. They had no clue and she watched them walk away. She had no clue about sending out proper IOI’s and giving a man ‘hope’ that it’s leading to something more. Guys need to be seeing results in the intimacy department if they’re gonna stick around.

Meanwhile she sees high N women like slutty “B” getting married and knocked up with kid filling the feminist dream, watching me marry “S” who apparently has a higher number than i was led to believe. “J”.. well she has no interest in marriage so i won’t knock her in this. At least she’s honest.

I can only imagine what “B”‘s husband would think if he knew how many men she let into her prior to him. He comes off as the quintessential beta, and i feel bad for him. He was a single dad with a daughter, great provider type. With the exception of the kid, they’re the perfect match. I won’t put up their real pics for obvious reasons, but if i did.. you can imaging it looks something like this:

Alpha written all over his face!

Alpha written all over his face!

But enough about her marrying an herb.

This was truly perplexing to “E” and she kept drilling me saying “But look at them, they got what they wanted and all of them slept around huge! Maybe i am doing it wrong.” I had to continue telling her that:

  • If B’s hubby ever found out her real number, if he had any balls, he’d be sick to his fucking stomach knowing he was basically a tag on the ‘take a number’ roll

    Proud eh'

    Strikingly similar in looks lol. Could it be “B”?

  • That being a ‘slut’ in order to attain getting a man makes her feel awful inside would destroy her over the long term (as the rawness states men should not become p&d dark game artists looking to fix deep seated issues in their lives. You don’t put a band-aid on a ruptured artery
  • That if she found a man, a decent kind man who did not play the field and wanted a girl who was very selective and treated her sexuality with the respect it commands.. he would balk at learning she slept around because others told her to
  • my marriage to “S” disintegrated in no small part to her pining for her last emotionally unavailable boyfriend prior to me entering the picture, her 5 minutes of alpha caught up.. not to mention inability to bond after having more cocks than i was under the impression of.

I dunno. Is this something that should just be expected? This happened during a time when “E” was obese, but years earlier she was thin and great looking (as she is displaying again).. but let’s just look at the other 3.. all of whom i put in the ‘very good looking’ category. Birds of a feather i suppose… the beauties stick together. So in a room full of good looking girls, who have options galore, and abuse that option mercilessly with wanton abandon.. the sluts are actually ‘Chaste-Shaming’ the good girl, actively encouraging her to become a whore, telling her that her lot in life won’t improve without it, that she is WRONG for not wanting to cough it up and embrace casual sex.

This is what’s happening behind closed doors folks. The sluts are on the offensive, counter shaming naive young women into becoming sluts, even if it’s against their better judgement.

Because once you put it into the minds of men that every girl is a slut… well then.. guess men will just have to give up chasing an extinct species, like the unicorn or the dodo.. and just accept the sluts past. What other option would you have?

If every woman were a slut, can’t complain about numbers now can we?

Heaven help us..


I have a future series of “I need feminism because…” pictures i’m working on to submit to


and here


…because i feel it’s time to take the Roosh approach and not bother actually debating these retards any more  rather just poke fun at and ruin their days just because you can. Fighting against feminism with logic and reason is a losing proposition. I prefer Roosh’s approach of simply making a game out of it, like having a contest about who the ugliest one is, or determine which one is more fuckable than the other. Nothing like stoking the internal fires of intersexual competition amongst these dumb birds.

I also have a post in the works as a direct rebuttle to that fat sow with tits, David “I am a woman trapped in a man’s body” Futrelle with his ridiculous diatribes against Ian and Vox. And i’m going to do it using Roosh methodology because i’m going to have fun with it as only i know i can. Because he’s not debate worthy. He’s scorn worthy. He’s ridicule worthy’.

A Man with Boobs. I mock it.



  1. Cosign. I crashed quite a few girls nights… and was horrified of all I heard.

    Glad that your friend was able to take the information. I suspect its also because it allows her to say NAWALT and gives her ammo to shut down the competition. She must feel flattered.

    M3: The ammo is a bonus. She’s a very good girl and i made her day verifying she made the right choice.

  2. Ouch… too many women just seem to be in complete denial about the effects of their promiscuity. I guess that’s what’s part of this topic being one of the most prominent topics in the Manosphere – http://3rdmilleniummen.wordpress.com/2013/01/08/virginity-vs-sluttery-part-3/

    Makes me really think about the type of girl I want to settle down with…

  3. First…”little rubber christmas trees”? What?

    M3: http://www.orthotechnology.com/new_products/images/632PY.jpg

    Second, I must admit that in my 27 years of life thusfar, I’ve never been to/had a Girl’s Night…but it sounds horrible. Is that *really* all they deign to talk about? Bleh.

    I must also say this though: I personally have been “number shamed” by coworkers, fellow students, and even customers who have trouble with proper social conventions. The fact that I have but 1 sexual partner that I’ve been faithful to for all 6 years of our relationship is apparently the worst thing I could do to myself. It is made infinitely worse by the fact that everyone knows I’m extremely unfeminine and independent, and so they expect me to “fuck like a man”.

    Never before did I think I’d have to raise my sex partner number to NOT be mocked…and even now, my fake number of 7 gets shot down completely. I guess attractive women have a duty to become sluts?

  4. Shaming good women? What the Hell has this world come to?

  5. To solve the slut shaming problem – tell them “None of your business.”

  6. I guess it is unsurprising that sluts seek to shame non-sluts into following their path. As you say, it is a short sighted strategy to make all men accepting of their N count because all women will be used and damaged goods so where else have the men to go.

    Although one thing I have noticed in the manosphere, specifically back when Mentu was posting at his blog. Casual sex seems to damage men in a similar (but distinct way) to women. Specifically, that like in women it destroys the mans ability to bond to a spouse like it does in women, but destroys it differently. The men seem to lose the will to bond. You can attribute this to “options” or whatever, but it seems like men who have sex casually lose the desire for an exclusive sexual partnering and the things that go along with it, like family and kids. Whether you think this is a good of bad thing is a separate question.

    What struck me is that by encouraging rampant fornication the girls are insuring that the men they most desire, even the marginal ones are going to wind up damaged to the point that they become incapable of being marriage material. Leading to the girls settling for less suitable candidates. None of this is news of course, and we all know of the effects of such choices and the destruction it leaves in it wake.

    It just strikes me as so profoundly irrational that the girls are incapable of seeing any of this. Or perhaps by the time they get the high N and have wrecked themselves their moral compass is completely out of whack anyway and they see nothing wrong with deliberately destroying another if it benefits them even marginally. It is depressing to think it may be that, but I guess Aristotle was right that all the virtues hang together and you can’t corrupt one without corrupting them all.

    Who knows, perhaps it isn’t “women” as a group that are deficient in moral reasoning, It is just that we are all so used to dealing with really perverted examples that we can no longer tell the difference.

  7. See Deti?

    I tolds ya so.

  8. as far as hateboobz…


  9. and Hugo Skeezer…


  10. I’m a recent reader and someone just taking the Red Pill (I’d say within the last couple years, but haven’t fully digested it due to a Meteorology BS degree that I am wrapping up), but feel like breaking my silence to comment on this. It seems like the trend with these damaged women to not only make being damaged the norm, but also a “Misery Loves Company” mindset so they can also revel in others who are seeing their mindset and world shattered by the same bad teaching that they themselves succumbed to. It makes me recall (wistfully) a girl that I was trying to get something going with. When we were talking, she told me about her dreams to have a family and a couple of kids by the time she was 30. While having this dream, she was firmly in a “I am just using men for sex as I don’t want to deal with them as anything more” frame (ie: hurt-related cock carousel). when I think back to her, I can’t help but feel… pity, likely, that she was, and probably still is, engaging in behavior that will make that dream nearly impossible. It’s sad, but I am feeling less and less of anything not pity for girls like that.

    In general, I am set in the idea that I’m only going to be looking to younger women for any chance of finding someone who has a hope of being anything near what I am looking for in a woman to settle down with (young college age). My BS radar is still a bit sensitive, but I’ll calibrate it as I go along (maybe not be as quick to call BS if a girl shows some hope). I am also becoming comfortable with the fact that she may not exists, and see it as me having more freedom to take care of myself and pursue My aspirations in life.

    I hope it wasn’t too much of a ramble…
    Here’s to the Red Pill, and not giving a Fuck.
    BDubs (who would be perfectly content to just chase stroms should a decent woman not show up).

  11. and Amanhater…


  12. and one for Rooshiepoops…

  13. http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3ryp2s/

  14. “guess men will just have to give up chasing an extinct species, like the unicorn or the dodo.. and just accept the sluts past. What other option would you have?”

    Gee I dunno.. maybe just pump them, dump them and forget them like those other 50 guys did?

  15. Alternative: Keep in touch with them for a FWB situation, after you’ve gotten a vascectomy. Until and unless they find a beta sucker willing to wife them up I guess. But no marriage, no commitment, no knocking them up, period.

    No rings for sluts.

  16. The really foolish part about it all is that there is a possible path of redemption for the sluts that is open to them and that will get them at least some of what they want.

    What it seems they want is to damage the competition and drag everyone down to their level so they can still be in the running to get the alpha commitment they desire. Unfortunately (if my hypothesis above is correct) that will prove impossible for them and continuing to sleep with the alphas will only insure that they are less likely and willing to commit. The alpah they dream of is forever beyond them at this point because of their sluttiness.

    But finding someone to wife them up an commit to them is still possible if they repent, renounce their ways and make it clear that they are serious about making a go of a relationship inspite of their damaged status. If they are aware of the difficulty they will have bonding it need not prove fatal to a relationship. It can be overcome with conscious effort. Harder than it would have been had htey not ridden the carousel but not impossible.

    But instead they will choose deception and compound their foolishness with evil. Sheer lunacy.

  17. “What it seems they want is to damage the competition and drag everyone down to their level so they can still be in the running to get the alpha commitment they desire.”

    Yes, I think that’s exactly it. In their heart of hearts the sluts know that the good girls have something they don’t, something they can’t compete with, so they shame and pressure them into throwing it away.

  18. So not only women give bad dating advice to men but to other women too.

    On the other hand, somewhere in the beginning of the manosphere it was told that game shouldn’t be shared with girls. But I, as you did, have also had these conversations with girls who are kind of red pill (one of them a 20 years old which I blogged about told me flatly: Things aren’t working today cause roles are reversed and we girls confuse the heck out of you guys. We need someone to lead us, decide for us and dominate us but instead of letting you do all that we have made everything so equal that you don’t know any longer what to do to attract us).

    So, yes, sometimes you see these “strange” women around! These are the only ones I exchange red pill recipes with

  19. @Retrenched,

    The bit that is beyond me is that the strategy can’t possibly work. Not, probably wont work, but is unavoidably ultimately self defeating.

    Where are these extreme unrepentant sluts who are landing the “alpha of their dreams” that are serving as a role model for these women? Am I missing something? All I ever see are sluts pissing and moaning about how they can’t find a man and all the guys hold their N against them forcing them to indulge in fraud.

    This nihilistic scorched earth strategy is just purely evil.

    If it was at least effective you could understand the conscienceless bottom feeding scum employing it to get ahead, but there isn’t even that. It seems AFAICS just an attempt to drag everyone else into hell with you out of spite.

  20. VIcomte:

    “See deti? I tolds ya so.”

    Heh. I presume you’re talking about this:

    “This is when “B” jumped in and had the audacity to claim that the real reason why “E” couldn’t land and stick a guy was because she was in fact not sleeping around, and that she should sleep with as many guys as possible if she wanted to find that guy who would start a relationship with her. She went on and on about how her finickiness, her making guys wait, her unwillingness to spread her legs on day 1 was the real stumbling block to her getting the man of her dreams.”

    Jumped out at me too.

    It’s funny. In girlworld, if you sex the guy, he MIGHT give you a relationship chance. If you don’t sex the guy, you WON’T get a relationship chance. But see, this works with the 20% of the men all the women want to f*ck. And their chances of getting the relationship are slim to none because the men they want to f*ck are the men with options. So the chances are she gets no relationship.

    But then if this top 20 percenter does pledge his undying love to the slagbag, now she’s not attracted, and she doesn’t want him. Because “he’s too needy.” Or she’s “just not ready for a relationship right now.” Or he’s “the kind of man you marry, not the kind of man you date”.

    The men who would be most willing to give them relationship status are the ones who the women don’t want to f*ck.

    Oh well. Enjoy the decline!

  21. Anotherone:

    “girls who are kind of red pill (one of them a 20 years old which I blogged about told me flatly: Things aren’t working today cause roles are reversed and we girls confuse the heck out of you guys. We need someone to lead us, decide for us and dominate us but instead of letting you do all that we have made everything so equal that you don’t know any longer what to do to attract us).”

    She’s right. But consider this: I think all girls are red pill. They understand at their core that they are attracted to men who don’t put up with their moods, their messes and their *merde*.

  22. Jason: The way you put it, doesn’t it just completely light up why the lion’s share of these people march in unison with leftist/Marxist believers? I don’t know what your politics are, but they seem to do the same things as those who try to push the above political agenda: They are almost always unrepentant, and try to keep the achievers/ undamaged down by shaming them into throwing their lives away to the same false ideal that the sluts did. Everyone Must be taken down to the same level; read Taken Down, not raised up to a better standard, but forced down. and, perhaps the biggest way that they are simpatico with the above ideology lies in how they can See that their way Doesn’t Work, but yet they keep trying to do it, thinking they can game the system and make it work. It’s the Same flawed methods, and they can’t seem to grasp that it will never work (or if they do, they shriek about how laws need to make it more fair for them to live with their shitty decisions).
    They don’t remember what one of the unofficial definitions of insanity is: Doing the same thing over and over, even though it Always fails, and expecting a different outcome.


  23. Jason:

    “Where are these extreme unrepentant sluts who are landing the “alpha of their dreams” that are serving as a role model for these women?”

    I am sure these women focus in on the outlier, the wives’ tale, the legend. You know, their best friend’s girlfriend’s second cousin from Kalamazoo who married the college quarterback after blowing him at the frat house Junior year.

  24. Deti: Most likely, it’s just like stories about how bad ideologies work when implemented within a government. They exist, but the part that is always left out is the part of the story where the marriage is miserable; the woman’s cheating with AlphaJack, and the guys on the cusp of jumping off the roof of the factory that he works at because she’s brought him to the breaking point.

  25. Isn’t being a slut the smart choice? Gets her full 5-minutes of alpha through promiscuity, partially re-virginizes and settles for the beta, gets the divorce cash. E is developmentally retarded.

  26. @Jason & deti: “Where are these extreme unrepentant sluts who are landing the “alpha of their dreams” that are serving as a role model for these women?”

    Yes. Every RomCom and Romance novel ever written.

    Okay, slight exaggeration. My point is they don’t need real examples, because their culture is filled with truthiness validating their bogus assumptions.

  27. M3: Rebuttal is spelled with an ‘al’ at the end, just FYI.

    Sluts shaming girls with a low N is almost a straight admission that the slut had no father worthy of the title. No father who cares about their daughter lets her behave like a slut, or even lets her think that that behavior is at all appropriate. The fact that this woman not only has no problem with her high N, but actually believes its the proper way to find man means she had no male in her teenage life who loved her enough to properly represent masculinity. These sluts should be pitied for their ignorance and poor upbringing if they were not so destructive to the rest of us.

    As a side note: You can always find girls with low N, even N=0. However…
    — They’re very religious
    — They’re fat
    — They were abused by dad
    — They grew up terrified of sex for some reason

  28. I just want to say to the sluts reading this:

    If it’s a relationship you want, there are at least two betas in your orbit RIGHT NOW who would gladly call you their GF, take you out to fancy dinners, give you gifts, spend money on you, and otherwise treat you like a queen.

    But you don’t want that, because that would mean you would have to f*ck the beta BF.

    You would rather f*ck alphas and alpha wannabes and douchebags than be seen in public with a beta.

    You have exactly the life you want. Your choices show what is important to you.

  29. Jeremy:

    It’s a strange world we live in when a non-slutty girl must be damaged in some significant way.

    There’s a hole in the world; all the way through.

  30. Vicomte,

    I was not staying that non-slutty girls *MUST* be damaged, just that you can always find non-sluts whose major malfunction is the reason they are.

    What should be truly shaming to the sluts is that there’s plenty of men out there who are actually willing to put up with the baggage to have someone who didn’t sleep around, many of them are alphas.

  31. Just say… “the typical woman has 3 lifetime partners”. Easily verifiable fact.

  32. the sad part about this is i would like to have kids in the future, so what the consensus is to setlle for this:
    -well travelled (dont get me started on this)
    -N-count of 10
    – pining for alpha
    – history a bad decisions
    – 29/30 with no assets cause she spent it all travellllinnngggg
    -bringing what exactly to the table??

    I think ill sign out of the game thanks lads….
    have a plesant evening gentlmen

  33. @ autopilot

    Sounds earily similar to something i wrote at Vox’s place yesterday


  34. There’s one odd thing I wanted to ask you guys about…

    My lover is still the only sexual partner I’ve had in my whole life. We have been “together” for a little over six years in a great FwB relationship. I’m monogamous, whereas he is not (has one other woman, and has had about 20 previous partners). Despite the fact I’ve repeatedly told him I’m very happy with the way things are, he tells me that he’d prefer it if I found other people to have sex with on the side.

    When it comes down to it, he says that he just feels badly that I (with a very high sex drive) constantly “force myself” to wait for the times when we can actually be together for more than a quickie. Thus, he wants me to become more promiscuous and have more partners/experiences. I don’t want to…it is very difficult at times to rely on *ahem* other methods of relief, but the fact that I don’t have to worry about birth control, pregnancy or STDs in our relationship is great. I know that the chances of finding ANOTHER guy like him who is also into lots of different sex is probably not that good…and besides, I don’t have a slut personality.

    He doesn’t withhold himself from me, so it’s not like he’s forcing me to find someone else, but he does remind me of this at least once a month. It seems like this is odd behavior, from my own experiences and from what I read in the manosphere. Any ideas on why some guys evidently don’t mind if their mates have a N of 2 or more? I’ve asked my lover, and he basically says that he’s had the pleasure of numerous partners…so I should too.

    What say you guys?

  35. @Anna,

    I don’t know why he would do that. Perhaps he feels like he is simply using you. He has no plans to offer you any commitment what so ever and is concerned that your exclusivity is stalkerish? You are “holding out for him to reform himself” or some such.

    Just a guess. If he has had 20+ previous partners then he probably has experience with crazy and your behavior sets of enough alarm bells to make him wary.

  36. He doesnt want your commitment because he’s not willing to commit himself.

    By restraining yourself to him you’re creating an asymmetrical relationship. One where you’re investing more than he is. Therefore he’s the bad guy.

    He wants things to be even.

  37. @BDubs,

    It does line up quite well with the expectations and practices of the average leftist true believer. I’m not surprised they go hand in hand. I’m a Libertarian tending to outright anarchist/voluntarist politically.

    I’m just particularly disturbed that it should be clear that the approach is at best an extreme long shot and probably doomed to failure and ye their approach to other women is to say, “tread my path it is great”, rather than say, “I choose badly don’t make my mistake”.

    I mean I know repentance is difficult, I know admitting you have made mistakes is hard, that you swallowed foolish ideas wholesale.

    But to willingly encourage others who can avoid your mistakes to make the same mistakes is just evil. Is it really reasonable to ascribe this level of cluelessness to them? That seems even more far fetched.

  38. As Yohami said. He’s not going to commit to you. Your N is irrelevant to him. He simply doesn’t want you to feel bad sitting on your hands or twiddling your thumbs in between romps.

  39. Jason: I wouldn’t say I call them clueless, that would be giving them too much credit (and conscience). I’d say for some, it falls into what you said about repentance being difficult (especially for someone firmly entrenched in the feminist/ slut mindset). They don’t want to face the truth of how they fucked up, and telling someone to not do what they did would cause so much cognitive dissonance in them, vis a vis their entrenched mindset and that being a tacit admission of having fucked up, that they can’t bring themselves to do it.
    I have no doubt in my mind that there’s a majority who simply want to “drag the bar down” so the will become the norm. Not only to become the norm in terms of how they are viewed (as if most girls are sluts, then it Can’t be wrong), but also that they, deep down, don’t want to be the only ones who are stuck in their miserable place.

    It’s just sick how they are trying to get girls and women to throw their lives away by telling them this is the way to go, and if some woman is doing that out of a selfish place of wanting to destroy another person just to make herself feel better, then she is a truly disgusting person.

  40. Anna,

    Outliers are difficult to account for.

    Your guy sounds like the kinky swinger type.

    Some people juggle geese.

  41. @OffTheCuff,

    I’m not sure what you base that statistic of 3 average lifetime partners on.

    I suspect it may be about as valid as the “women make 75c for every $1 a man makes” statistic.

    Assuming it isn’t simply based on non-anonymous self reporting, or that women don’t simply lie about their N even when done anonymously, it still might not be that useful a statistic.

    There is an issue with what counts as a “partner”? Does a quicky one off blow job count? It seems like a lot of “modern girls” might say no. But it seems unlikely that the average guy would consider that as not counting. Also, there is an assumption that the stat doesn’t simply omit one night stands by design. Not counting them as “partners” because they aren’t ongoing.

    But even then, assuming the stats were entirely accurate and they counted the N based on what a guy evaluating a woman’s N would work it out to be, you will still get the same problem at the 75c on the dollar stat. You are lumping everyone in together.

    Additional problems with the stat, it is an average. But an average can mean lots of things. It could be that when you actually break the stats down across all females, you find a large number in the 0/1 category, a smaller but reasonable chunk in the 2 category, and then everything sub 10+ from there being quite empty with an even distribution of the remaining in the space above that to about ~50. It might still “average” to 3, but if you don’t find a virgin, or someone with an N of 1 and they are past a certain age, then you can expect to buy a circus pony.

    Also there is simply the issue that older women are (50+ at a guess) are just likely to have had fewer partners because the carousel still had a social stigma attached to it back then.

    Final thought. Apart from the age issue, with the average likely being higher as the age brackets get younger (down to about 25 or so I would guess? I don’t know), there is also background to consider. More education (depending on the degree etc) could raise or lower average N significantly. Amount of serious religious commitment would probably lower it (It depresses me that I can’t say would definitely) as well.

    I don’t know what the stat of “Average of 3” means, because we lack the data, but it isn’t likely to be a meaningful stat and any conclusions drawn from the stat are likely suspect.

  42. @Barry,

    I guess I just find it frustrating. They have made a serious mistake, but it is possible to turn the train around and still make a reasonable deal for themselves. They don’t need to have it end in being eaten by cats when they die alone.

    As much as it runs counter to the usual thinking, I have no doubt that even the worst carosel riding slut can make a reasonable marriage partner if she is honest about her situation and commits to making the best of the circumstances she chose for herself.

    But they just seem so intent on a controlled flight into terrain. I just can’t understand it.

  43. every non-married 25~ yrs old girl that I know has had more than 3 boyfriends and some flings in between relationships. single ones that are NOT slutty have at least 2 new partners per year. sluttier ones 5+. the real sluts one every weekend.

    3 sexual partners in your life? maybe a nun.

    10 is a prude number

    I get a feeling that 20+ by the age of 25 is expected

  44. @Jeremy,

    Is being “Very religious” a problem? To my mind it would depend on what the nature of that religious commitment is. And also sadly even supposedly “very religious” girls have bought into the idea of “technical virginity” rather than taking chastity as a virtue seriously.

  45. @deti,

    You are probably right, they think they will be the one to “win the lottery”. Still, we rightly think of someone who uses “winning the lottery” as a serious financial security plan as something of a nutter. I wonder how long it will take s similar perception to filter out about women who take the same approach to finding a husband.

    I am always surprised at how long people can persist in denying a simple maxim like “Reality isn’t optional”.

  46. I don’t think OTC’s comment was serious.

  47. @YOHAMI,

    Thanks for your anecdote which makes my point nicely 🙂

    Although someone might observe that you are dealing with an outlier population yourself.

    I know quite a few women 25+, never married who have an N of 0 or at least likely very low (I would wager they aren’t lying. Some might be, I don’t really know for certain I suppose). But then again I am dealing with religiously conservative christian women who place a high value on chastity. Or at the very least a very high value on its appearance.

    And if the female proclivity for tearing down the opposition isn’t a product of the nihilism that seems to go along with “advanced sluthood”, then it seems the cat wouldn’t stay in the bag.

  48. @vicomte,

    You may be right. It is the sort of number that is reported.

  49. Jason, Im in Buenos Aires, Argentina… high population density, crazy nightlife, lots of tourists and a very sexual culture (tits, asses and transgendered people on prime time tv). People here might be above the norm, but I wouldnt call them outliers. They are millions.

  50. @YOHAMI,

    But I am guessing that the women you meet are the ones willing or at least likely to put out. They may be common but your observation is no doubt strongly influenced by the ponds you fish in.

  51. Jason, I meet women that are willing to put out… in offices, malls, street, universities, parties, picnics, friends gatherings, friends of friends of friends… female taxi drivers, bartenders, waitreses, students, designers… etc. for sure I met them. everywhere. here. there might be some confirmation bias though. because in my blue pill years I thought everyone was a prude and sex rarely happened.

    now I meet “good girls” that are ready to put it out. all the time.

  52. @Jason
    I have to admit, I actually laughed out loud about your comment. I’m probably the LEAST crazy woman he has ever met.

    Yeah, that’s kinda what I take from our conversations about it. However, it still doesn’t change my personality…I am a “one guy” type of female, even if it means that our commitment is utterly skewed. And, as I said before, it means that there is so little to worry about during sex! Why should I risk pregnancy, diseases, etc AND have to pay for birth control just to be satisfied more? In my view, it’s just not worth it.

  53. Jason,

    As a guy from the burbs in America, my observations parallel Yohami’s.

    Your average girl gets her first real boyfriend at sixteen or seventeen, dates him for a year or two, dumps him or gets dumped if he’s relatively alpha, then spends the next few years sucking, fucking and jerking her way through the weekend house parties with occasional breaks for a six-month boyfriend here or there.

    By the time they’re twenty-five, if you were able to collate the actual numbers, you’d probably get an average of twenty for combined sex acts with different people.

    Thinking of every girl I’ve known well enough to know, they’ve all hand a handful of self-identified boyfriends, you hear about who they blew here or there, you see the guys that were around for two weeks and gone, the numbers grow quickly.

    Spend enough time with a group of girls on an afternoon and you’ll come away with a few plus ones you didn’t know about before.

  54. “Spend enough time with a group of girls on an afternoon and you’ll come away with a few plus ones you didn’t know about before.”

    that’s how I got my mind blown. the shit they talk about is just incredible.

  55. I was never as ‘blue pill’ as a lot of men, so I can’t say I was ever surprised by any new information.

    I am always interested to hear what fat/ugly/beta/dweeb managed to get his fingers in the hot girl, however. ‘Getting lucky’ happens more than our little club would lend one to believe.

  56. Jason,

    “But then again I am dealing with religiously conservative christian women who place a high value on chastity.”

    Ah. I dont know enough christians. The population here is largely atheist.

  57. Median female N is 3 per the CDC, including oral or anal sex, table 3. Whether you believe it or not is your issue.

    My point was that if women are cackling that people are “prudes” if their N is 5, you can point out that 5 actually is higher than typical.

    Click to access nhsr036.pdf

    Have a prudish day!

  58. Disappoint.

    But I get to say that thing again where I mention how utterly ludicrous a study on the self-reported sexual habits of women is.

  59. @OTC

    “CDC says it’s 3”

    So you’re telling me that i should tell “E” that she’s a slut then because she’s over the median? You cold bastard…


    I get what you’re saying. Tell her she’s within the ave. norm and that the other girls are bonafide hotdog hallways.

  60. @YOHAMI & Vicomte,

    In fairness I am an Australian in Australia and have been with the same woman since I was 21 and she is the only woman i’ve ever had sex with.

    My sample size for women consists these days (and for a while now) of quite religiously serious christian women who often have married comparably young and to the best of my knowledge are usually virigns (as are the guys, again to the best of my knowledge).

    It wouldn’t be true of all of them, not all of them were raised as Christians (I certainly wasn’t), but the sample population of women I know well tends towards “good girls” who at least outwardly give the appearance of taking chastity and faithfulness seriously.

    Still see to many divorces and still see cases of wives (and less freqently husbands) running off with other people, but on the whole my sample set is likely skewed towards the very chaste end of the spectrum while your sample sets aren’t.

    I think we basically agree about the validity of the 3 average lifetime partners stat though.

  61. Jason, that makes sense.

  62. Jason,

    While I believe you, you observation is certainly not the norm among more secular populations.

    I wish I was religious so I could meet a nice Christian girl.

    You kids don’t mix with the heathens, right?

  63. The stuff that abounds here: girls hooking up like crazy, while at the same time look for ethernal love and perfect relationships. And are constantly disappointed that the new guy they chased for two weeks and were able to finally bang doesnt see them as wife material. But oh whatever they have the next prospect ready and they just woke up with hot mexican guy who also fucked her best friend, the bastard.

    It’s nonsense.

    Girls in long relationships are bored and all they do us envy the promiscuous friends and pick reasons to fight with the boyfriends and go out on girls-nights.

    And everyone blames everything on the men.

  64. hahaha,

    the only way I’ll get married is if I meet an ex-prostitute…

    every night after she cooks me a big dinner-she’ll say, “Oh, of the 8,694.23 guys I’ve had, yer not the biggest, nor the brightest, but you are most certainly the best…”

    Being that she is such a great lady and saved during her working years, she will support me so I can spend my time listening to tunes, reading comic books, going to the beach and playing video games….

    barring meeting such a high caliber womyn, I will happily stay single….

  65. @Vicomte & OTC,

    For what it is worth, anonymous self reported stats are apparently somewhat more accurate. You don’t need to hide anything.

    Although I agree, self reported stats of this sort of thing are likely a joke except for the actual “good girls”.

    I remember an article someone quoted where they asked what guys considered counted as “slut” in terms of a womans N, with 5+ being the lowest possible number and it was the one chosen overwhelmingly.

    Although it will no doubt make me sound wildly out of touch (and I probably am) but I can’t even fathom the idea of a woman with an N over 20+ (heck 4 or 5 even) that isn’t being paid for sex in some capacity (prostitute, porn, etc), as a norm rather than an extreme outlier.

  66. @Vicomte,

    No doubt my observations are colored by my environment. Whose aren’t?

    We mix with heathens 😉 I would just not encourage any of the girls to date you. Although there is no prohibition against it specifically it is warned that it is a bad idea. How could it not be? If your religion is a big part of your life and you are convinced it is true (or your atheism for that matter) then having a marriage with someone who doesn’t to a large degree share the same commitment is only going to result in friction.

    In terms of “wishing you were religious”. It is only worth it if it is true. If you are interested in an argument for the truth of it I am happy to oblige 🙂 Email me, christianmeetsworld@gmail.com (I promise not to tell if you do decide to take me up on the offer).

  67. The maddest thing about the “hook up like crazy till you find the one” approach is that it can’t possibly work.

    If you spend years and years training yourself to be in short term relationships and get out when “the going gets tough” you will never be able to be married, you simply wont have the right mindset for it.

  68. @stonerwithaboner,

    You joke, although interestingly, I know of a few women, former porn actresses, became serious christians after conversion (serious enough to start an outreach to porn workers), who have gone on to be quite successfully married. Although admittedly I only know of them from the stories they tell or (in one case) an interview I did with one of them (The group is Pink Cross).

    Of course, they are (AFAICS) genuinely repentant for their pasts and recognize it for the problems it will cause for them in bonding and being married successfully. The barriers aren’t insurmountable, but they do require a recognition that they exist and an effort of will to work through them.

  69. “The maddest thing about the “hook up like crazy till you find the one” approach is that it can’t possibly work.”

    Yeah. I’ve pointed it to them a lot. I’ts not “hook up UNTIL you find THE ONE” though. It’s not what you mean. It’s not like filtering men so they can find one to settle themselves.

    THE ONE in this context is finding one man who can make them feel really, like, really special. And push their emotions to the limit and endure. But they are in no position themselves to commit to that man and be only theirs. They will try to find one man and surrender to their own emotions and have a vivid experience – but that’s all. They dont need a husband, they dont need a provider, they dont need a man. They need the biggest and harder and most interesting cock they can find and then they will try to retain it for as long as possible. Which usually tops at two years before they want to try new cocks and experiences.

    Key point is, the ONE concept is not about lifelong, and is not about commitment. It’s about sensation. And sensations as you know, change transform and die.

  70. Jason,

    The problem with SR is that the women don’t have to lie. They genuinely will believe a majority of their sexual experience ‘doesn’t count’. Anonymity is no guard against the hamster.

    I was being (mostly) facetious about the religion thing. I lack the capacity for faith in religion or god..It does, however, pique me that despite being virtuous and moral myself, I have no access to similarly-minded women.

    Then again, I think envy might be one of your sins.

    Personally, I would argue that believing that something is true is more about the belief than the truth, importance-wise.

  71. @Vicomte,

    You are likely right about the hamster.

    Thats alright about the religion thing. The offer stands though if you are interested. It is good for me to put all things to the test and I always want a fresh to test make sure my faith is rooted in rationality and evidence.

    Incidentally, I find your statement about “lacking the capacity for faith” interesting. I think this may have more to do with your definition as much as anything else.

    Honestly not envious of “lacking experience” sexually, I don’t think. It is true I lack a standard of comparison but the only way to find out if I would prefer the other way is to make choices that you can’t take back.

    Heck, isn’t that the one of the points of the original post?

  72. @YOHAMI,

    I fear your observation is no doubt right. That is so depressing.

    Especially as these girls do marry.

  73. I was referring to (my) envy of your chaste and conscientious women, which is a breed I have not encountered on my side.

    (They won’t even accept a heretic’s compliment! You can’t deal with these people!)

  74. I reread my original comment and see where the misunderstanding was:

    Envy being a sin for your religion, as opposed not being one for my lack of religion, not your sin personally.

  75. Jason,

    you know what they say about jokes, they usually have some element of truth…

    I’ve heard tons of stories about guys marrying prostitutes. One guy told me they can make loyal and loving wives. I don’t know that I’d personally take the risk. I’ve also heard stories of women working as prostitutes while married. Sometimes with the husband’s consent-there was usually some other crazy thing going on, like the guy was injured and couldn’t work and the lady lost her HR job or whatever and they didn’t want the house forclosed on…

    anyways, I can read a blog of some asshat like Roosh and he maybe slept with 100 women (if allot of his stories aren’t made up that is.) Then I can go read a prostitute’s blog like Maggie McNeil and she mentioned her number was something like 4000-I don’t know if that’s 4000 guys or paid sex acts….

    wow, the differential is enormous, she got all the cock that she could handle and I think she charged $200 or so, she made $800,000-that’s almost a million bucks, and I doubt she paid taxes. Sure it would’ve been over a decade or so but since she didn’t pay taxes, she’s living as good or better than most that make six figures….

    so, I don’t know, there’s a grave inequality at play here….

    a woman has a ton of sex, makes a ton of money, most guys can only dream of having a ton of sex or are motivated to make a ton of money to get the chance to have a ton of sex…

    I don’t know much about the Pink Cross and I don’t think anyone should be forced into prostitution-but I think a consenting adult should be able to buy or sell sex if they freely choose. I have seen some of that anti-porn stuff and am really put off by it. It has all the Hugo Schwyzer/Robert Jensen-men are teh evillle oppressors, womyn teh poor victims ™ narrarative and I don’t think that’s the full story…

  76. @Vicomte,

    Maybe it is just the ones your meet 😉

    They want to “do life right” and that means waiting till marriage.

    Actually one of the things I Iove about my current church is that it will encourage a couple to marry when they meet “the right person”. Not put it off and put it off till they finish uni, or get settled, etc. So there are more than a few 21st parties where the girl is already married. Seems to work, I guess we will have to wait 10 or so years to see, but I’d wager it wont be to bad.

    As I said, for some you encounter it may be an act.

    I guess the rule for finding “good girls” is to make a point of nexting them when they put out prior to marriage or whatever level of commitment you expect, and don’t take advantage of it. Which is probably a hard call. After all, you will get a reputation that will make the “good girls” probably avoid you.

    That is a guess though not anything I would claim as knowledge.

  77. After reading the last 30+ comments, I’ve truly realized what an “outlier” I really am.

    I’m not prudish. I love going to topless beaches, often don’t wear clothes when I’m at home, and hope to vacation at a nudist colony someday. I greatly enjoy sex, love practicing how to better pleasure my lover, and have never said no to any new position/role yet. Our bodies as a species are fantastic, and are obviously meant to be sexual once we reach an age of consent. Even if you have a belly, too much hair, less than perky breasts or are balding…we are all quite glorious. The Lady and Lord have truly blessed us with such wonderful bodies that are capable of so very much!

    But in spite of these beliefs (or maybe because of them), I honestly feel that the act of sex is borderline sacred. It is the joining of two people who care enough about each other to share their most sensitive and intimate parts. It is the opening of a certain side of yourself that few others ever get to see…a type of vulnerability that demands the best of trust in your partner. It is the ability to find the deliciousness of giving pleasure to someone you love, while also allowing yourself to receive. Or at least, that’s how *I* feel about it.

    When I hear about men and women who just have sex simply to have sex…I wonder where our culture has gone wrong. I’d no sooner have sex with someone random than to invite a person 5 streets down to just come into my house. Where is the dignity, the sacredness, the love for another person and their natural sexuality? It boggles my mind!

    Not that (I suppose) there is any great crime in people who give sex away so willingly…even my lover has had numerous partners, but then he is also 15 years older than me. If people do not view sex as I do, and put little value on it, then I suppose that our culture makes sense. If having sex is comparable to playing table tennis or cooking spaghetti…just another action, in other words…then sure. Go have sex whenever you want.

    Maybe Jason is onto something though. Perhaps us “overly religious” types DO put a stronger value on sex than others. He specifically says Christians, but I’m Wiccan and share many of the same “prudish” thoughts. This is a very interesting topic, but perhaps it is dangerous too since it involves religion/atheism. What do others think?

  78. Anna,

    This is exactly what I’m talking about.

    My thoughts on the matter aren’t too different from yours, yet I have no religion and no desire to have one. As such, I belong to neither the hedonistic atheist contingent, nor the more reserved religious one.

    Outliers are difficult to account for.

  79. @stonerwithaboner,

    I agree with you, prostitution shouldn’t be illegal. Not sure how different it is to going on a date to get a one night stand. Just more up front. If one is legal it seems pointless for the other to be.

    I like Pink Cross enough that I give them money periodically.

    I don’t really buy the “ebile menz oppressorz” shtick of the feminists. I’m sure cases exist, but I question that they are the majority. I don’t get the impression from the stories from Pink Cross that they blame anyone else for the poor life choices they made. Usually it centers on thanks to God for getting them out. Part of becoming a Christian involves an admission of how you have dug yourself a hole you can’t get out of., how you have f*&$% up your life. Repentance is central.

    Part of the problem in the church today seems to be (based on stuff I have read at Dalrock and others) an attempt to deny that woman are responsible for breaking their lives and instead they can blame someone else.

    Incidentally I hope Roosh and the others are telling the truth. I used him and others as part of my “guys willingness to bond is destroyed by promiscuity” hypothesis.

  80. Jason,

    well, this isn’t my strong suit, but I read some eve psych stuff about promiscuity….

    I don’t know that promiscuity affects the ability to bond so much as some people seem wired for it and others aren’t….

    the old correlation/causation thing…

    wish I had a link….

    obviously many people have “damaged” bonding ability….

    my parents were abusive to each other and I’ve been naturally distrustful of women (people in general) over things that happened growing up…

    I’ve reached MGTOW from a different path than Mr. M3….

    I know a Christian guy who is 29 and might be a virgin, I didn’t straight up ask him, but he talks about finding “the one.” But, he chain smokes and is tattooed. He’s got a potty mouth-kind of ghetto/trashy. Haha, I even said to him, “Jesus kills a baby kitten every time you cuss.”

    He just replied “You don’t know a f–king thing about Jesus.”

    For me personally, I wouldn’t want his female counterpart as a sex partner-a tattooed, chain smoking foul-mouthed woman who is probably inexperienced. I’d much rather a non tatt’d, sweet talking woman. I’m not planning on getting married, so partner count doesn’t matter much to me so long as she don’t give me an STD…

  81. @Anna,

    A couple of thoughts. I wont pretend to any knowledge of Wiccan sexual standards. Most of what I know about Wicca and other neo-pagan religions comes from my time 18 years ago at uni when I used to role play and game with a bunch of guys and girls from the universities Pagan society. Plus just what I read up on their beliefs as I sought to understand them.

    It is interesting that you describe sex as “sacred”. I agree with you there. I might go so far as to suggest that the union of man and wife (physically, not marriage as such) is a symbol of the union between man and God (although we are obviously all female in that sense of the relationship, if that makes sense).

    It is interesting that in the Old Testament (The Jewish scriptures today) that when Israel runs after foreign gods and turns away from YHWH (The traditional Hebrew name for God, more or less anyway) it is always likened as them behaving as prostitutes.

    Another interesting aside, for all the girls who think being a slut is better than being a hooker, God disagrees. Prostitutes at least get paid and do an honest days work. Being a slut (or Harlot to use the biblical terminology) doesn’t even rise to that level of respectability. Gah … I can’t find the reference.

    I don’t think my approach to sex is prudish though. Some Christians no doubt are, but the bible always seems to teach, have as much sex as you want as often as you want, just do it in the context of marriage with one spouse till death do you part. At least for women all the survey data I have heard suggests that the most sexually satisfied women in America are conservative protestant women with 2 or 3 kids. They report the most orgasms and the most satisfaction with sex. They also tend to marry as virgins. I know I have seen people dismiss that as “well they have no standard of comparison” but it seems to be the consensus of the manosphere that that is actually a good thing in a wife (The idea of the alpha widow and all that).

    I would argue that God commands we have sex within certain parameters because doing it outside of those parameters leads to disaster. I’m hard pressed to think that if everyone in the manosphere was honest that they would especially disagree with that idea. I may be over stepping suggesting that, but I don’t think so. At least in terms of getting married, staying married and finding a good woman for marriage.

    A final thought Anna. I think for girls at least, even if you aren’t damaged at the outset when you start sleeping around, being promiscuous does seem to leave the girl badly damaged at the end. That has been my experience of watching non-christians at uni who were friends pursue the current sexual libertine fad that is in vogue. I think it screws the guys up too but the damage is more subtle.

    At the end of the day, I am a Libertarian, I think people should be allowed to do what they want, and I certainly don’t expect non-Christians to adopt Christian sexual mores if they don’t want too. I might note that it will go better for you if you do, but i’m not very big on coercion.

    And unless M3 thinks the discussion is to far off topic, I don’t mind where it goes 🙂

  82. feel free to hijack this thread. im going to bed.


  83. @stonerwithaboner

    I guess it is hard to tell with the promiscuity thing. There does appear to be chemical bonding that goes on when couples have sex together, and it does appear to get worn away if you do it too much. The old sticky tape analogy and all that.

    The way the damage happens is clearly different between men and women. My “guys lose interest in bonding if promiscuous” thing is just a hypothesis of mine.

    Based on data like divorce rate and things like that though. and apparently a direct correlation between N and chance of divorce, there is something going on in women who sleep around when they try to marry. Characterize it however you will.

    I guess one problem is that, even if you assume there is a set of people who are not significantly damaged by promiscuous sexual activity, there is no actual way to tell until after the fact. By the time you know the damage is done.

    Sorry to hear about the road you have travelled to MGTOW. It is sad that in our day and age it is rational choice and “path of least pain”.

    Does the 29 year old you know admit to being a virgin? Most Christian men will admit it, actually essentially boast of it, but nobody else values it in men. Bit like the reverse of women lowering their N.

    I don’t really get the decorative tattoo thing. Not sure what he is hoping to acheive if he is a serious Christian. What sort of wife does he hope to attract? He might be right about your lack of understanding about Jesus, although his understanding seems a little off as well, at least in my opinion. But that could be my social conservatism leaking through.

    I agree, heavily tattooed chain smoking females are very unattractive. Some tattoos look good, but in general I just don’t get the body art thing.

    If you aren’t planning anything long term, then I can understand (except for STD risk) that partner count is irrelevant, or even that high N is somewhat desirable as it demonstrates slutitude. I will never forget the scene from Dogma (a surprisingly great film), where J & Silent Bob are picking up women outside an abortion clinic because they know they put out.

  84. “Sorry to hear about the road you have travelled to MGTOW. It is sad that in our day and age it is rational choice and “path of least pain”.”

    It is what it is as they say. Could be worse I guess. MGTOW for me embodies allot more than not marrying. It’s about turning your back on a world that thinks your less than human. I’m still extremely angry but I’m not really worried for myself, I’ll always be able to eek out a meager living. I’m actually more worried for the young boys without any “positive male role models.” The one’s that get heavily medicated so they are more “manageable” in the classroom. The one’s that are acceptable “collateral damage” to the feminists and tradcons. Society needs to change….

    “Does the 29 year old you know admit to being a virgin? Most Christian men will admit it, actually essentially boast of it, but nobody else values it in men. Bit like the reverse of women lowering their N.”

    I don’t particularly like the guy but still, I wouldn’t want to humiliate him so I didn’t ask. He loves football so would probably not mind being compared to Tim Tebow. That being said, he was talking about “core strength” and abs workouts and I said my favorite workout is boom boom with a fun, attractive lady. He kinda got awkward when I said that and since he cusses like a sailor, it wasn’t the “crassness” of the statement. Most the other guys I work with would’ve either laughed, given me a high 5 or made a quick remark like, yup that belly is gettin’ round, I can tell it’s been a long, long time since you last “worked out.”

    “But that could be my social conservatism leaking through.”

    He calls himself a conservative and complains about O’Bama every day.

    “If you aren’t planning anything long term, then I can understand (except for STD risk) that partner count is irrelevant, or even that high N is somewhat desirable as it demonstrates slutitude.”

    I’ve been told that if safe sex practices are used, it can be reasonably safe. The porn industry tests their performers even though they rarely use condoms. I’ve been told that professional prostitutes in Amsterdam are safer than the girls someone like Roosh might get in a bar…

    “I will never forget the scene from Dogma (a surprisingly great film), where J & Silent Bob are picking up women outside an abortion clinic because they know they put out.”

    I have really complex feelings towards abortion. Who knows they could’ve been raped. An “empowered slut” or “professional prostitute” should be on birth control-hopefully effective so there are no “ooopsie’s.” (Actually, any sexually active person who isn’t trying to become a parent.) I’ll stop here-this is where 200 angry feminist’s drop into the thread-make fun of reproductive rights for men and tell us we should all get vasectomies and shut up….

  85. Feminism has made North America rotten, and Australia and the UK are following in it’s wake.

  86. @stonerwithaboner
    Hey, those are my favorite kinds of workouts, too! Seriously though, I’m also sorry if your road to GYOW was rough…sounds like it might’ve been the best option, if not the preferred one.
    Also, I agree with you and Jason, in that prostitution should not be illegal. Quite the opposite…I think that if it was treated as any other legitimate job, with standardized pay/health benefits/STD screenings/certification, then we’d have far fewer younglings forced into this by street pimps, and more women/men who want to do it. Better for everybody involved, in my opinion.

    Doesn’t matter to me if you’re atheist. Actually, I have had exactly 0 arguments/issues with “non believers” opposed to the numerous problems I’ve had with rude, nasty Judeo Christians. (Not to say ALL Jews/Christians are horrible…I’m friends with many!) I’ve found it’s much easier to have a religious or spiritual debate with someone who doesn’t remind me every 30 seconds that I’m “going to hell” or relies too heavily on Pascal’s Wager. I’m also happy that you and Jason feel the same way about sex as I do.

    Well, since M3 doesn’t mind…
    I just wanted to give you some background info on me: I was raised Jewish by my grandmother/great grandmother til I was 7 and stopped living with them. Then I was raised Catholic by my mom/stepfather, and brought to Born Again churches when I visited my father/stepmother. I’ve been to Jewish temples, a Buddhist monastery, and Kingdom Hall, not to mention various Protestant churches, either with friends or by myself. I adore theology, and have read the Talmud, 2 versions of the Bible, and some of both the Koran and Book of Mormon. Just saying so you don’t have to provide definitions/explanations all the time. 🙂

    I see what you mean about “we are all women” according to your beliefs when comparing the sacredness of having sex to the sacredness of knowing God. I respectfully disagree with it, but only because I think it makes the feminine half of having sex sound overly passive. This is just me poking at terminology though…don’t take it too seriously.

    I’m actually quite curious to know what you remember/know about Wicca. I’ve been studying and following it since I was 14, and have certainly grown in my faith these 13 years. It worries me a little that you mention that the only Neo Pagans you knew were both RPGers and university students…I am/was both of these too, and met many “Pagans” who were simply too into magic and fantasy, or doing it to piss off their parents, or thought that it meshed well with their Feminist way of thinking. Obviously not all Wiccans who go to college and play D&D are like this…but I do wonder how much of what you were told was “fluffy bunny” Wicca, or even religious at all. Care to tell some of what you know?

  87. Yes deti, they understand ‘red pill’ wisdom so much so that 5 is considered a ‘low’ number…

  88. @stonerwithaboner,

    Yeah I know what you mean about the next generation.

    Fair enough about your friend. Incidentally, if he isn’t a virgin that could be a source of embarrassment for him. Either way.

    A thought on that occurs that I will toss in, that actually harkens back to the point of the thread. For all the talk of experience and how it is important, I have heard a number of people (Christians and not) who have regretted their sexual experiences, especially later when they are married and they can’t share that exclusive intimacy with their spouse. That that unique experience is forever lost to them. I have never in my life heard of someone who regrets their lack of experience and variety (with the caveat that this is after they have gotten married etc. I’m sure the average incel might speak differently). The catch nobody mentions is that the choice is one way. We have a culture that says it is no big deal and yet in my experience it turns out that it is.

    In terms of STD’s, it sort of depends. There are lots of STD’s around and they seem to be spreading quite rapidly. Also they are not all stopped by condoms. At some level, make your choices and live with the consequences.

    On abortion, I am opposed to it. I’d go so far as to say, it is profoundly evil to kill another human being for your personal convenience. I do quite like the observation that, rape and abortion are wrong for the same reason. But as you say, its leave it there.

  89. @Anna,

    First a comment on what you wrote to Vicomte. I know some Christians can be annoying, but even if the concern about “but your going to hell and need to repent!”, bothers you, give them a break. It is because they care that they warn you. Heck, it is in the back of my mind as we have this conversation, I just don’t put it front and foremost because I have found it can be counter productive in conversation. If Christianity is true (and I think on the balance of evidence it is) then you do have a problem and to ignore that is to hate you.

    Sorry, didn’t know explanation wise. Although I might continue a bit for the benefits of anybody else following the conversation who might be interested but is unfamiliar. I hope that is OK. My background is from being taught basically nothing (some Sunday school a bit, it meant less than nothing to me) to atheism and then from atheism to Christianity. I’ve explored other belief systems but generally from within a Christian context. I am quite a fan of aspects of the Greco-Roman traditions, but this is probably in part because I enjoy philosophy and have very soft spot for the ancient pagan philosophers (Especially Aristotle/Socrates and the Stoics).

    I know you disagree about the “we are all women” thing. I wish the Church got the idea across better (especially the Roman Catholics) because it demonstrates so simply why the idea of “female priests” is simply an abomination. I am a Protestant myself (Anglican, but of a strongly conservative rather than theologically liberal variety) so I don’t have much use for priests as such.

    Your testing my memory on Wicca. It is a Pagan nature religion that has some magical rites and worship in covens. They have 2 principle deities? Some magical principle about a “three fold path” that reminded me of Karma. Some of this could be confused, it has been a really long time (on the order of 20 years).

    The people I went to uni with for a year (before dropping out) took their paganism seriously, and used the term “a myth to live by”. I don’t think it was simple teen rebellion. No doubt for some it was. Although it wasn’t limited to wicca but included a number of neo-pagan traditions.

  90. @Jason

    I really don’t mind if you continue with the explanations for everyone else. I was just trying to make less work for you. 🙂

    I’ll do some reading up on the Anglican type of Christianity so I know where you are coming from…I didn’t realize that you weren’t in favor of female priests, otherwise I might have worded my response differently. I was honestly just saying that I dislike how our culture puts male sexuality as ALWAYS “active” and female sexuality as ALWAYS “passive”. It never has made sense to me.

    Sorry if I offended you with my remark to Vicomte. But if you’ve never had anyone yell at you for saying “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas”, someone refuse to pay you for shoveling their driveway when they see your pentacle necklace, a patron physically snatch back the tip they just gave you for saying “Yes, I do celebrate Halloween” or come home to find that your 9 and 10 year old siblings were abandoned by their babysitter because she was snooping around and saw your mother’s alter…then I don’t know if you can really know where I’m coming from. It’s not just the whole “going to hell” argument…THAT I can talk about and deal with. It’s the blatant rudeness and mean spirited actions I can’t stand.

    (By the way, please don’t apologize for these people…I already know that many of you are not like this. And besides, YOU haven’t done any of these things to me, so you shouldn’t feel any responsibility for them.)

    I’m glad that the Neo Pagans you knew seemed serious. There are already enough “fluffy bunny” Wiccans and rebellious emo/goth teens who hijack these beliefs. It kinda makes me cringe a bit.

    To let you know where I’m coming from, here’s some quick points about Wicca as it’s normally viewed in the US.

    -there is both a Goddess and a God, who are united in their power as divine Creators.
    -many believe in the Three Fold Law, tthat whatever you send out comes back thrice.
    -men and women have three life stages, each with different energies at their disposal (maiden, mother, crone AND youth, father, sage).
    -a belief in reincarnation, sometimes coupled with a rest/reflection time for the soul in what we call the Summerland. There is no hell, heaven or purgatory in Wicca. There is also no Satan/Devil.
    -a belief that all sentient creatures have an immortal soul, just like humans do.
    -some version of the Wiccan Rede, which is quite long but often shortened to “An ye harm none, do as thou will”.
    -a view of sex as a sacred sharing of energies. We do not view homosexuality as wrong, nor do we condemn transgender people. Many feel that these “issues” could be due to residual memories/feelings from a past life where the sex was different than this one.
    -a willingness to accept that there are many paths to the divine, and that the “meaning of life” is to learn and teach.

    We do not perform any sacrifices, worship nature, or evangelize. A coven will not accept a follower if they are under 18, unless their parents approve or are also members. We have our own rituals, prayers and ceremonies. There is no such thing as “white” or “black” magic…it is a tool, much like a knife. Many of us, myself included, are strict vegetarians and loathe any unnecessary pain/death. Personally, I gave up eating any form of meat when I turned 14…it has helped me to remember the oaths I used when I dedicated myself to this path. My belief in the Lord and the Lady has also helped to solidify my feelings of equality between women and men, which I try to let shine through everyday.

    Hope this wasn’t too long of a comment, and that it has helped you and others understand what direction I’m coming from! I look forward to your response as always, Jason.

  91. @Anna,

    Reading up on “Anglicanism” may not get you that far. You can put me in the box of reformed protestant on the extremely theologically conservative side (not a young earther though). Low Anglican if that helps at all.

    I’m not actually in favor of “priests” at all. Just that, if someone is going to represent God, then it just needs to be a man or else the imagery is wrong.

    I wasn’t offended at all. Many of my fellow believers can be asshats at times. If it is any consolation at all, I would take such a person to task if I knew of someone behaving like that. I don’t really understand what they expect to achieve. If they want to decline your offer of service, or not use it again that is one thing, and you can do that politely, but to break a contract like that is beyond the pale.

    You speak of cringing at fluffy bunny wiccans. That is pretty much how I feel when I see people professing to be Christians act the way they did to you.

    Thanks for the summary. Some of it rings bells in my creaky old brain.

  92. Well, i can’t say I’m very surprised. This is just one more stone to throw in the bucket as to why I should NOT get married. There seriously isn’t much incentive to. 60 partners, what the fuck? What does the average male have in his life? 7? If that? Then there’s that scattershot approach to dating. Spread your legs and you’re guaranteed to find “the one”? What counterintuitive “logic”.

  93. No problem, Jason. And like I said…the majority of Christians/Jews aren’t like that. Overwhelmingly, my friends are *some* type of Christian and none of them have ever acted in such ways. I get the feeling that your fellows who DO act like that are more afraid or brainwashed than they realize, and it turns into anger or hatred. Ah well, people are people…often set in their ways.

    You have the most interesting reason for not wanting female priests that I’ve ever heard of. Usually I hear it’s because Paul said for women not to speak in church, or that we are unclean and should not seek to teach (clean) men. I’ve even had someone say that because a priests clothes involve wearing pants, that THIS was the sole reason that women shouldn’t be allowed near the pulpit.

    Yours interests me. Is the reasoning behind it the fact that Jesus was male instead of female? Or does it go deeper (higher?)and it’s because the Christian translation of God is always masculine? I mean, the Gods/God is purely spiritual…literally! They/He exist as spirits not as flesh and blood like us, and are thus not limited to bodily forms. I don’t believe that the Lord has an *actual* penis or scrotum, just as I don’t believe that the Lady has an *actual* clitoris or vagina. They are the embodiments of femininity and masculinity…but They have no visible sex since They are spirits.

    Do you actually feel that God *is* purely male, and thus didn’t make half the population in His image as the Bible and Torah claim? Or does it boil down to the fact that when God supposedly sacrificed Himself, it was as a man? Just curious.

  94. @Anna – God as He reveals Himself in the Bible as used by Christians is always Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is no “female” version of God as He reveals Himself to us (and to answer the next question, this isn’t a matter of translation.)

    With respect to male-only pastors, that comes from the instruction God has passed to us via the Scriptures, just like how, in the Old Testament Israelites, He mandated not only men to be priests, they had to come from the tribe of Levi, and for some specific roles, the people who filled those positions had to come from a specific family within that tribe.

    “Pastoring”, rightly understood, is never about the person in the role, it’s always about God choosing specific people to do His work in His way. As such, a male-only pastorate / priesthood comes from God’s choosing, not ours.

  95. @Anna,

    I might start at the end and work backwards.

    God is pure spirit, so He is neither male nor female in any physical sense and God is shown having all manner of properties that are typically masculine or feminine.

    However God reveals Himself using the masculine personal pronoun at all times. At the very least we should honor that deliberate choice.

    Please note I have no use for priests at all, I am a protestant. One, not insignificant part of Jesus’ mission was to provide us direct access to the Father and no longer require a human mediator.

    But if you are going to have a human mediator between you are God, and that mediator is effectively acting as God’s representative, then that mediator needs to be a man because the symbol of the role can’t be fulfilled by a woman. As I said, in a sense, we are “all women” when it comes to the relationship with God. This doesn’t mean passive, it just means in the submissive role with God as our head and leader.

    Paul noted that the marriage relationship is a symbol for the relationship between Christ and the Church, I would also note that the Father/Child relationship is also a symbol for God’s relationship to us. A world created by God is obviously going to be full of such symbols. There are proper ends and Natural orders to the whole creation even if they are out of whack due to the fall.

    I think there are lots of reasons why it is a bad idea for a woman to be in a position of leadership in the church, where ever it has been tried it has lead to problems. Incidentally AFAICS the problem is when the women are put in positions to make decision on teaching, or where feminist concerns in general are allowed to infiltrate. I can’t find the article but I read a really good article a while back that noted that when women get into leadership positions in protestant denominations then feelings replace the Word as the final authority because men and women approach such things differently. Men are more likely to say, “sorry the rules so no, so we can’t make the change”, and women are more likely to say, “Why can’t we all just get along and be nice to each other”. That is obviously grossly over simplified and not always true, but I thought the observation was interesting. And it is true that Truth is jettisoned for feelings whenever women have been allowed into traditionally all male leadership positions. Not instantly but over time.

    You see it most recently with an endorsement of homosexual practice by the church. Such behavior has always been regarded as wrong, a perversion of the proper ends of human beings. Given the negative mental and physical health effects of such a lifestyle, I would argue that God is right to forbid it because He loves his creation and only forbids those things harmful to them. The rule exists for a reason. But because women seem more feelings oriented and want to get along, they jettison the rule because it makes some people feel bad and they don’t like doing that. This seems particularly a problem with women that would seek such office in the first place. I’m not sure why that is, maybe it is just a feminist thing.

    This is getting pretty far off track, I am happy to continue but for stuff that will attract pointless critics who aren’t interested in reason (see last paragraph for example) please email me for follow up christianmeetsworld@gmail.com if you wish, for the rest here is fine.

  96. @Anna and Northern Observer,

    I would agree with NO, at the end of the day there is a simple “God said, that’s the rule, end of story”, line that is appropriate to take.

    It is also that there is reasons for the choice.

  97. @Jason

    Thank you for clarifying your position on this. Unfortunately, it seems that there is very little we would be able to agree upon…at least from a religious perspective. Indeed, I found myself heartily disagreeing with just about everything you said in your last few comments.

    I’m fine with homosexuality, have respect for female or male priests (of any religion), do not believe that the Bible/Torah is the word of any god, understand the need for abortion at times, and don’t believe that women make less adequate spiritual leaders.

    Due to these many differences that I’m sure we’re both very firm in, I will stop my part of the conversation out of respect for your beliefs. It is good that I now know where you’re coming from when you post comments,but I’m afraid I’ll never be on the same page as you.

    I do thank you for a good conversation, though!

  98. @Anna,

    That’s ok Anna, I didn’t expect you to agree 😉

    I’m just telling it like a I see it. Whether you agree with female or male priests is sort of a non-issue because you aren’t a Christian. It would be a bit like me saying, It is completely wrong for Wiccan’s to have female priestesses and then seek to have it reformed deploying the force of the state where I could. Or some such. The religion is voluntary, if you don’t like the rules _leave_.

    It annoys me that feminists and their fellow travelers aren’t willing to leave people who disagree with them alone. But what do I expect from small minded thugs? Not that you are forcing anything so I have no problem with it 🙂

    I enjoyed the conversation too. Some other time perhaps.

  99. Precisely…live and let live. 🙂

  100. “It annoys me that feminists and their fellow travelers aren’t willing to leave people who disagree with them alone. But what do I expect from small minded thugs?”

    LOL! +1

  101. […] ‘gossip’. Word spreads. They talk about partner count. Penis size. If he knew what he was doing. Whether he likes going down and whether he’s a GOD […]

  102. Reblogged this on MGTOW 2.0.

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