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This shouldn’t really be news, but…

October 19, 2012

In a feminist world teaching that women don’t need men, starting back in the day with that horse Murphy Brown, worshiping heroic single moms who who threw the men/fathers out of their kids lives, or want to play the empowered single woman who wants it all…

GO AHEAD AND FUCK UP YOUR TEENS LIFE YOU SELFISH FUCKS

Relationship with Dad Affects Teens’ Sexual Behavior

Fathers’ attitudes toward teen sex and the emotional closeness of their relationship with their teen have a sizeable influence on their teens’ sexual behaviors, separate from the influence of moms, a new review of studies suggests.

I’ve met many daddy’s issue girls that validated this theory eons ago.

Previous studies have linked positive parent-teen relationships with teens’ sexual behaviors. For example, researchers have shown that parents who monitor and discipline their teens and communicate with them reduce the risk of their teens being involved in sexually risky behaviors.

You don’t say.

However, most studies have focused on the influence of mothers on teens’ behaviors.

Because only mommies count.

“The lack of focus on fathers represents a critical missed opportunity to improve the sexual and reproductive health of teens,” Guilamo-Ramos said.

Pass it on: Fathers’ attitudes toward teen sex have a big influence on teenage sexual behavior.

To little, too late.

Enjoy the decline.

132 comments

  1. I didn’t have a teen sex life, because I wanted to wait for someone special. Not marriage necessarily, just someone I cared a lot about. I could never relate to my friends who were having all this crazy sex with people they didn’t give much a damn about. I didn’t get it because I saw how much their parents talked to them about safe sex practices, but it was like it went in one ear and out of the other. Rebellion, perhaps? I suppose my mom was my main influence.


  2. Very commendable on your part and i’m proud of your stance. It takes courage and principle to do the right thing in the face of ‘everyone else is doing it’ herding mentality. You realize your worth isn’t based on how many boys like you for giving away your most treasured possession at a whim.

    If i can ask, since you relate that it was your relationship with your mother that guided your motivations.. can i ask you to define your relationship with your dad? As i said, most ‘sluts’ that i knew had either horrible relationships with their dads, or they had no relationship (dad was absent). So im curious how your relationship impacted your development, whether conscious or not.


  3. They divorced when I was 5 and my mom moved us to Indiana with her side of the family was. He visited me and my sister when he could and we flew out to see him when we could as well. He took on us vacations and we talked a lot on the phone over the years, and that’s still pretty much how it is. We have always gotten along with him. I have a stepdad who I also see as a father figure who has been in the picture since I was 7, and I get along well with him too. But I don’t remember ever discussing sex with either my real dad or my stepdad.


  4. Interesting. For the moment let’s ignore that neither of them had a bird n the bees talk with you (also, did your mother give you that talk?)..

    you say your relationship with both your dad was pretty close given the distance/circumstances, and that your get on well with your stepdad who you see as a father figure too.

    Were they always attentive and there for you when you really needed them? Where they quick to applaud you or validate your actions when you did something good? Were they quick to admonish you sternly but fairly for when you did something that did not meet their approval? Did they allow you room to experiment and maintain some form of autonomy while under supervision or did they give you free reign to do as you please or did they not allow you to do anything unless under strict supervision?


  5. Yeah my mom had the talk with me and shared her values and attitude towards that. Both my dad and my stepdad were supportive and I always knew they would have my back. But when it came to monitoring my behaviors, discipline, giving me permission to do something (or not giving it) etc, that was mostly done by my mom although my dad and stepdad would always let me in on their perspective if it was a more important issue. They would talk sense into me if I did something wrong but it was usually mom’s call on what to do about it. But my dads applauded me for good things and were there when they needed to be.


  6. This is so true and so sad that more women don’t value fathers and their influence on children. Too many women grow up without fathers and so they don’t understand what a father adds to raising a child. I’m the oldest of 3 girls and have 2 girls of my own. I can remember my dad having the birds and bees talk with me. Of course, I thought he was old and couldn’t possibly know anything about boys. Freshman year in college when I had many seniors asking me out, I discovered that he knew exactly what he was talking about and he was actually a huge help navigating the dating world. There are insights into the male mind you just can’t get from mom and and a child will take those to heart more when it comes from a man who you know loves you and wants the best for you. My girls are still young but the involvement my husband has now lays the foundation for their relationship going forward. To me, the results of the study seem so obvious but it probably won’t get broad coverage, and that’s really sad.


  7. I got my sex ed from my slutty best friend, who lost her virginity at 15. I would listen to her descriptions of what it was like and see the crap she was going through and thought, “No thanks, I’ll wait.” She was an excellent deterrent.

    The joke at our high school about her was: “Take Kelly out, spend $1.25 on her and you can get laid.” Sad.

    Kelly had no parenting. Her mother was divorced and lived a separate life from her children, but she had custody. She would leave Kelly and her two younger sisters to fend for themselves. She would throw money on the dining room table for food and be gone for weeks at a time. No adult checked on the girls. No one called CPS. They were on their own.

    Everyone knew the girls lived alone and one time a guy who had been a senior when we were freshman broke into their home. He beat and raped Kelly. She was 15. No one called the police. I wanted to, but she begged me not to. I still remember his name.

    Kelly is an incredibly mixed up person today. Having no parents ruined her life.


  8. A father imposes rules and enforces them. A father is the one who explains “If you do X, then Y will probably happen.” A father is the one who imposes consequences for breaking rules. .

    A father is the one who explains to his daughter how boys and men see her. He tells her what boys really want sluts for. He tells his daughter how a girl becomes a slut and how she can keep from becoming a slut. He tells his daughter about the misery and unhappiness that await the slut. And he does not need graphs, charts, surveys and double blind random controlled peer reviewed studies appearing in wonky, pointy-headed academic publications to do so.

    He encourages her to think, not just feel. He encourages her to make decisions based on logic and reason, not emotions, feelings or the herd.

    Let the mothers love their daughters up and cuddle them. Let the fathers tell the daughters how it is.


  9. That, plus, Dad is the first man a girl wants to please. She wants to make Daddy proud. It is the base work of submitting to a man. I wonder . . . for wives that are happily submissive, what was the relationship with their father like?


  10. Ashley you should visit my good friend Danny.

    http://www.dannyfrom504.wordpress.com


  11. Yuppers.

    M3-
    Slow your roll and just once a day.


  12. I meant post once a day.


  13. Thank you good Sir.


  14. Well said, Deti.

    Fathers are not optional.


  15. I just recently started following. 🙂


  16. What if a woman has a promiscuous history but settled down and is still able to bond with her husband? What if her being slutty came with no negative consequences? Is it still wrong?


  17. Glad to have you on board Texas! I think you’re doing it right and i appreciate your thoughts and stance on the matter.


  18. I think the consensus of the sphere is that once a woman has had one too many men, that bonding agent becomes weak. Whereas it may have been special early in life, he simply just becomes ‘another man’ at this late stage. Whatever she feels in the instant euphoria of the moment will wear out and she will become bored, tired, compare to previous men, lovers, think about chasing a new thrill, new high, like a drug. Even self repentant promiscuous women (aka sluts) who want to change for the better struggle with the concept of being with this one guy for the rest of time. Their minds wander to the greener pastures.

    Some great links and stats here:
    http://dicipres.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/sluts-dont-deserve-to-be-loved/

    There was also a link i cannot find that led to a woman writing in to an advice column stressing how she loves her husband but does not desire him anymore (she compares him to her one night stands). Painful stuff to read. She’s looking for something her husband cannot provide.

    The scenario you’re providing may very well be true, with no negative consequences to her. But for every man in that position.. it’s like living with a bomb on a timer.. and you have no access to the view how much time is left on the clock.

    And her slutty behavior will always have consequences even if she doesn’t realize it, it will still affect him. I can’t dig up this link either, but there was one story of a woman writing into on online help forum saying she admitted her high partner count to her husband long after being married. He was devastated but would continue the relationship because he loved her and the family they had. She got to live it up and enjoy a life of wanton fun, get married and have the family without anything but a pang of regret at her husbands reaction. He gets to live the rest of their life carrying the burden of her choices to be promiscuous, lie by omission of her number, and endure for the sake of the greater good.

    Hardly fair in my books. No guy wants to know they were number 25 to their special snowflake.


  19. What constitutes as “one too many” men and what makes it anyone’s business but her own? My thought is, as long as anyone is being safe about sex, it is their own business and their own only. I don’t believe any one needs to know their partners number. As long as they are std free, I’ll never tell anyone I date and I don’t think they should tell me theirs. It’s personal. Even if the guy I marry is #3 or #30, it doesn’t mean he is less special to me. If he feels less special because is is #30, then that is not her problem, it’s his problem and he is free to find someone else. This is what I learned when I dated someone and made the mistake of asking them how many sexual partners he had. The fact was, I didn’t need to know and I had to get over my insecurity that I might not be as special because he had more women than I expected. Now, I will never ask that of a man. As long as he is std free, I don’t need to know about his past sexual experience.


  20. Ashley, you’re proving the very nature of most women right now. And it goes back to my prior article on sluts.

    What constitutes “one too many” men and what makes it anyone’s business but her own you say? Well.. for starters – HIS. If he’s going to put any risk into the relationship, be it financial, emotional, physical.. then he has every right to know what he’s stepping into before he makes such a choice. One can only do this with all the information at hand. And we wouldn’t want to lie to someone we might want to spend the rest of our life with now would we? That would hardly make for an honest and trusting relationship right out of the gate no?

    You ASSUME that because ***you*** don’t have an issue with you being a guys #30, that it will follow that he should feel the same about being your #30. Welcome to the reality your feminist overlords have drilled into you. You may freely reject me and the sphere’s contention that YES, YOUR NUMBER WILL MOST LIKELY CARRY SIGNIFICANT WEIGHT to your future partner, especially if he was an unlucky beta who did not get to enjoy the wonders of casual sex because he didn’t have a vagina OR did not follow the path of douchebaggery and for moral/religious/ethical/any reason beyond involuntary celibacy, CHOSE not to engage in massive hookups while looking for a decent girl, decent being whatever his mind decides ‘decent’ to be, not what you or any feminist deems it to be.

    If you are unwilling to care about a guys number (ever hear of the term trashdick?) then your best bet is finding someone who is a high number man. You can then be assured that he will not hold your number against you. But with that many women under his belt, you will have to accept that he’s a pretty good flight risk and you’ll have to keep him satisfied and drained or he’ll be on the lookout for #32. But i think preselection demands nothing less than this. See, women don’t want numbers to be accountable because they want the freedom to bounce off alpha’s, knowing they most likely will not commit, so when the time comes to settle with a non alpha, those poor beta’s need to be shamed into thinking that numbers don’t matter. Pft.. mmhmmm.

    Men view ‘special’ much differently than women. It’s based on our biology. It’s based on our sexual roles. It’s based on the ease of attaining sex for one gender and the obstacles required for the other. It’s based on the evolutionary and biological consequences borne by each gender in having sex. These are things you can’t wish away with a simple utopian wave of your hand.

    If you don’t want to hand our red cards for promiscuity that’s fine. That’s your call, your judgement. I just hope you’re not naive enough to expect the same from men.

    *i am not making a claim against you or saying your number is too high or too low. i don’t even know your number at all. i’m simply going by your contention of #3 or #30 as you used as the basis for this debate.


  21. Ashley:

    Would you buy a car without knowing how many miles it had on it?

    I’d like to sell you this car. It looks great, a real beauty. But you don’t know it’s been in a couple of wrecks and had to be repaired. It also has a serious transmission problem. And it has 150,000 miles on it.

    I am offering it for the price of a brand new, off the showroom floor car, even though it’s been “gently” used. You pay full retail price. No negotiating — you pay what I am asking, or you move on.

    Oh, and I am not going to tell you anything about the wrecks, the transmission problem or the mileage. You don’t NEED to know about those little things. They aren’t important, right? You’ll find out about those AFTER you buy the car and pay the money.

    In fact, I feel free to lie to you about those things. No, it’s never been in a wreck. The transmission is great. And it has only 1000 miles. And how dare you ask me anything about the car anyway! Who do you think you are to judge this car!? You have no right to judge it. It is just as good as any other car.

    So get your checkbook out, Ashley. Time to pay up.


  22. “What if a woman has a promiscuous history but settled down and is still able to bond with her husband?”

    They are both very lucky. But, he will need to know what caused her to settle down. Sluts settle down and reform for only a handful of reasons:

    1. They are tired of the carousel life.
    2. They can’t pull the hot men any more even for pump & dumps (i.e. they’ve been kicked off the carousel).
    3. Their bio-clocks are roaring in their ears like freight trains. Instead of “clickety clack” it goes “gotta make a baby, gotta make a baby, gotta make a baby”

    You’d be absolutely amazed at how interested the slut is in church and marriage and a house and domesticity.

    Ashley, you need to understand the female directives.

    Female prime directive: Secure best genetic material available to get pregnant and have babies (hypergamy is implicit here).

    Female secondary directive: Secure provisioning for her babies.

    Female tertiary directive: If she fails in directives 1 and 2, secure provisioning for herself by any means necessary.

    The above three directives drive ALL female behavior, in my view.
    ____________________________

    “What if her being slutty came with no negative consequences?”

    There are always negative consequences from sluthood. Even if she didn’t get pregnant or an STD, she’s bonded to the other men. This bonding happens whether she wants it to or not and whether she knows it or not. She has to sever the bonds, and she can’t bond to another until the old ones are severed.

    An ex GF (we’ve been broken up 20 years) called me recently. She told me she still loves me and always will. I remember she called me 6 months after we broke up telling me she was having a hard time with our breakup. She had bonded to me and cutting the bonds was very painful.

    The time she spends having to cut those bonds and recuperating from the emotional injuries is time she is unable to give to her husband. It is emotional intimacy and connection she cannot or will not give her husband. And it is emotional intimacy and connection she cannot receive from her husband because she must necessarily grieve the severance of old bonds.

    “Is it still wrong?”

    Yes. Because she didn’t give her husband her best years. She didn’t respect him enough to give him her best.


  23. @ Ashley:

    “My thought is, as long as anyone is being safe about sex, it is their own business and their own only. I don’t believe any one needs to know their partners number. As long as they are std free, I’ll never tell anyone I date and I don’t think they should tell me theirs. It’s personal. Even if the guy I marry is #3 or #30, it doesn’t mean he is less special to me.”

    I can tell you right now from personal experience: Were I single, any woman who ever refused to divulge her number would get automatically NEXTed. If you’re having sex, it’s no longer private and personal.

    If we’re having sex, your past IS my business, particularly if you’re telling me you’re on the pill and it’s safe to go raw.

    Your past IS my business, particularly if you’re asking me to spend a month’s salary on a rock for you to brag to your friends about.

    Your past IS my business, particularly if you’re asking me to give up my freedom and keep myself only unto you as long as we both shall live.

    Your past IS my business, particularly when you demand that I get out my checkbook and finance your lifestyle and that of our kids.

    Your past IS my business, particularly when you demand that I play the role of pack mule and carry my burdens AND yours too AND those of our kids.

    Your past IS my business when you demand that I voluntarily take on the risk of devastating pain from a divorce, not to mention a better than even chance of the relationship’s failure, the loss of half my assets, my house, and the permanent loss of the ability to direct and influence the upbringing and instruction of my children, and the permanent loss of enjoyment of their company and society.

    So if you want me to be a husband, then yes, wife, your past IS my business.

    Your past IS my business,


  24. These standards sound like those that I have heard by devout Christians. “keep your legs closed. only give yourself to the one you will marry. give him your best years.” What if sex isn’t viewed this way by people?

    I get that you have your views, but why try to push them on to everyone else? You seem like you are forcing everyone to think this way and acting as if everyone views sex in the same way. “because she didn’t give him her best years” is something you might feel about a woman and her past, but this is not how everyone views sex.


  25. Ashley:

    “keep your legs closed. only give yourself to the one you will marry. give him your best years.” What if sex isn’t viewed this way by people?”

    Then you do what you want and you take your chances. Lots of women before you have taken those chances and come up unlucky: kicked off the carousel with no husband and none in sight. These are the kinds of women who write articles in national magazines going on and on and on and on about their past boyfriends, their fear of marriage, their glorying in the carousel, and then rationalizing that they never wanted to marry anway.

    If those are chances you want to take, more power to you.


  26. “I get that you have your views, but why try to push them on to everyone else? You seem like you are forcing everyone to think this way and acting as if everyone views sex in the same way.”

    I’m not pushing my views on everyone else. I’m putting them out there for you to review. You can accept or reject them. I don’t care. It’s no skin off my nose.

    I am not forcing everyone to think this way, but if more men and women did, they would probably be happier. M3’s marriage might not have busted up if his wife thought this way. And there are millions of men like M3 out there who would probably have been quite happy to stay with the ex Mrs M3 if she had been good to him and reasonable with him and treated him well.

    So, Ashley: what do you think? Do you think you can have sex with 30 men before your husband and never, ever compare him to men you knew before– men with better bodies, nicer faces?

    Do you think you can have sex with 30 men before you marry and insist that you keep that part of your life from him, or lie about it to him?

    Why? Why not?


  27. I just know that for me, I had a period where I was figuring out what I wanted in a relationship, in a man, in sex. My first time was very special though. I waited until I was almost 20 and it was 2 years into the relationship, but that one ended eventually and then I was 21 and out there in a completely different arena than I was in high school. My number isn’t as high as 30 or even 20 but let me just say that not every man I have had sex with was someone I could say I was in love with or serious about. Still, I kept myself protected from diseases and unwanted pregnancy. I experimented, I dated around, and I had fun. Some of these encounters didn’t end so well with certain men… but I don’t regret anything. I was in a different place in my head back then and I wasn’t committed to anyone. When I found someone I wanted to commit to, I only sleep with that person. It was a learning experience. If I had to do it over again, I wouldn’t change anything, even though not every second of it was positive. Some might call my number too high, but I don’t care. I am happy with it and I am still able to bond with men I want to commit a relationship to.

    “Do you think you can have sex with 30 men before you marry and insist that you keep that part of your life from him, or lie about it to him?”

    I wouldn’t lie by telling him a false number, but I would have to first ask him why he thinks it’s such a big deal. If I was persuaded to tell him and he held the number against me, I would question my judgment about marrying the guy…not question my judgment about the past. What is done is done and can’t be taken back. What is a woman supposed to do, go “Oh shit, I slept with 1 too many men and now I am not marriage material. Oh well, I guess that’s what I get.”


  28. “If I was persuaded to tell him and he held the number against me, I would question my judgment about marrying the guy…not question my judgment about the past. What is done is done and can’t be taken back. What is a woman supposed to do, go “Oh shit, I slept with 1 too many men and now I am not marriage material. Oh well, I guess that’s what I get.””

    Your life, your risk.

    A lot of women I know have taken the risks you are taking now. They ran up their Ns and either never found a man they could commit to or no man was willing to commit to them. Now they are part of the “where are all the good men!?” campaigns. Now they are hamsterwheeling and rationalizing their choices, saying “Oh, well, I didn’t really want to get married anyway.”

    What you’re doing carries a great deal of risk. You might run out of time. You might pass up a perfectly good man and miss out on him. You don’t have all the time in the world.

    Badger has outline sketched a theory stating that any one person meets at most two or three people of the opposite sex that he or she could be truly compatible with. I agree with that. My own life bore this out. In all of my 40-odd years on this planet, I have met a total of three marriageable (to me) women in my entire life. Three. That’s it.

    Good luck. You’re going to need it.


  29. Ashley,

    Perhaps this random collection of examples will help give you our perspective more easily:

    “Oh shit, I did not have enough entertaining stories to excite women and now I am not marriage material. Oh well, I guess that’s what I get.”

    “Oh shit, I do not have an exciting/high–paying job [in a bad economy that is beyond my control] with which to entice/support women and now I am not marriage material. Oh well, I guess that’s what I get.”

    “Oh shit, I was not born with the genes to make me over 6′ tall to meet 99% of women’s criteria and now I am not marriage material. Oh well, I guess that’s what I get.”

    “Oh shit, I was born in an era that criminalized masculinity thus causing me to lack the confidence and dominant attitude women find irresistible and now I am not marriage material. Oh well, I guess that’s what I get.”

    I could easily continue but the foundation is there.

    Many women may call that “whining” but how is it any different than the point you are making?

    In fact, men have far less control over the factors I mentioned above than a woman has over her partner–count.


  30. If this was Call of Duty I’d claim you were hacking cuz by my count that’s 4 headshots in a row lol.

    Tho as long as she’s willing to accept the reprocussions of her choices its cool. There will be men who won’t take issue with a high partner count if she looks hard enough. It’s when a woman hides or fudges her number to avoid losing a man that makes my blood boil.


  31. So the message I am getting is, since young women can control the number of men they sleep with, they should control it by keeping it as low as possible so more men will want to marry them? I hope I am misunderstanding this. It would be a ridiculous standard.


  32. Ash, you’re free to act as you see fit. I’ve always said, ignore what we men say at your leisure and listen to women instead.

    If you believe men will not take umbrage with you having a high partner count, that’s your right.

    I seriously doubt you will get into a sexual audit with your future husband as to how many of your sex partners were meaningful vs. One night hookups. All he will know is that X number of men got to enjoy the best of you long before he did, and for much less investment. But this is your choice and your life.

    If you feel the need to lie about your number, then you are not proud of your behavior. If you lie to a guy about your number in order to keep him you’d be the worst kind of person by taking away his choice to decide if you are what he feels he deserves.

    If you can live your life honestly and not lie about your number then I say enjoy your life and I wish you luck for the future.


  33. Having that said, a man who wants a more virginal girlfriend or wife can do what he needs to do to find one. Marry young then because the older you get, the more everyone has been around the block and once you have, there’s no taking it back so it’s something everyone who doesn’t marry young is going to be faced with forcing themselves to accept or stay single.


  34. There are tons of virginal guys, very few virginal women (this proves the pareto principle). Tho this is most ideal, it won’t likely happen in this day and age.

    And if you need proof that the old singles are piling up, do a lookup for 35+ year old women on PoF looking to settle down because they really want a kid and no guys are stepping up to the plate to reward them after over a decade of ‘having fun’.

    Most guys can deal with being alone and not having kids. The only ones bitching in the media are the ladies.


  35. Compared to most women my age that I know, I have a low number. I have been proposed to twice, and I declined. I don’t want to be married now and I couldn’t be happier with where I am in my life. Not all women see marriage and kids as the end all be all of life. I’m not concerned with finding the right man. I know of plenty of men who have wanted to be with love me for me and don’t care what my number is because most of the women they are messing around with are way passed me and so are they themselves, and their numbers are rising by the day while mine isn’t. You might be thinking “Oh boy what risks she is taking. She’ll wake up one day wishing she had said yes to the guy who proposed but by then it will be too late because no one will want her dried by wrinkly vagina.” Trust me, that doesn’t sound like the worst thing that has happened to me.


  36. What? Any study you can find will tell you that women have less sexual partners in their lifetime than men do and men lose their virginities at younger ages than women do. Where are all these virginal men you are talking about and all these women who are just slutting it up all over the place?


  37. Ash, i think you missed the forest for the trees here. It’s a GOOD thing you refused proposals from high number men who are ‘still racking up numbers’.. chances are they’d play you good. And i already told you, a high number man really won’t care about your number precisely because they have huge numbers themselves. I’m talking about guys with low numbers.. guys i’m going to presume you don’t really look at.

    Forgive me if i’m assuming that you are following hypergamy to a tee, and you are surrounded by and only noticing the high count guys because you are a very attractive woman surrounded by only the most confident alpha characters trying to clean up with you. Preselection demands that you are attracted to men who are ‘very good’ around other women. I have to assume you don’t give the low number men much pause and since you haven’t written about them either interacting or proposing to you.

    And i’m wondering what you’re doing with guys who are banging other women who have surpassed your number?

    I think this is the disconnect between 2 generations. One saw it as an act of bonding between two people. One saw it as an animal act to attain a self gratifying orgasm and to ‘feel good’ in the moment. Hookup culture.

    Perhaps i should send you over to Hooking Up Smart. Maybe Susan should have a talk with you…


  38. Look up Apex fallacy, the pareto principle, involuntary celibacy and hypergamy. Go ahead. Google. Do a little research and get back to me.

    You are only seeing the top 20% of men, the 80% you’re not attracted to are invisible. Ergo, you think all men are having sex. False.

    You and me walk into a bar. You ask 100 guys, i ask 100 girls. Who do you think is going to be able to accrue more sex partners. The only man on the planet who could compete with a girl of your looks is George Clooney. It’s the nature of bio sex differences.

    Look at the OKCupid study that showed women find 80% of men un-attractive, verifying hypergamy.

    Read this.
    http://manningupsmart.com/2012/10/20/managing-hypergamy/

    Then get back to me.

    Every blog in the sphere will corroborate what im saying. Even the female bloggers. Go ask them, i’ll wait.

    Then get back to me.


  39. So the message I am getting is, since young women can control the number of men they sleep with, they should control it by keeping it as low as possible so more men will want to marry them?

    Correct.

    I hope I am misunderstanding this.

    No, you got it.

    It would be a ridiculous standard.

    As opposed to your standards for men?

    Our needs differ therefore our standards do.

    That is the point of having them.


  40. “If this was Call of Duty I’d claim you were hacking cuz by my count that’s 4 headshots in a row lol.”

    Many thanks, M3.

    “Tho as long as she’s willing to accept the reprocussions of her choices its cool. There will be men who won’t take issue with a high partner count if she looks hard enough. It’s when a woman hides or fudges her number to avoid losing a man that makes my blood boil.”

    Agreed.

    My only issue with her is the same I have with most women:

    They can have criteria but when men do it’s “ridiculous”.


  41. “They can have criteria but when men do it’s “ridiculous”

    We’ve already crossed that rubicon. Who gives a fuck what they think about our criteria. Not me 🙂

    Times are a changin’


  42. “I don’t want to be married now and I couldn’t be happier with where I am in my life. Not all women see marriage and kids as the end all be all of life.”

    The vast majority of attractive, female 20-somethings say that.

    And none of us doubt your temporal sincerity.

    But be sure to return in 15 years and read your comment again.

    It will be here.

    Waiting.


  43. M3, Ace:

    note Ashley’s attitude. “Men need to accept me for me and for who I am, and if they can’t do that, that’s their problem.”

    I wonder if she feels the same way about men? I wonder if she is willing to accept a man the way he is?

    I wonder if she is willing to accept being pumped and dumped because “that’s the way he is”?

    I wonder if she is willing to accept a man’s faults, whatever they are, because “That’s the way he is”?

    Ashley, the men you are with whose numbers are way past yours don’t care about your number because they don’t have any intention of giving you the ultimate investment and commitment: marriage.

    On the other hand, if you have sex with these men, you are giving them the ultimate benefit: sex with you.

    So who’s getting the better deal?

    Their numbers are high because they are attractive men. Trust me: You’ll get sex, maybe even love for a little while. But the highly attractive men you find so attractive get the bang, stay as long as they feel like it or as long as you’re not hassling them or as long as you’re willing to be in a soft harem; then get out. They are not going to marry you. Not now, not ever.


  44. I think we’ve all bludgeoned this horse to death 5x over. All i can say is at this point, us men and our ogre like ways of communicating will not further effectively dissuade her. Either she has a heart to heart with some of the gentler women of the sphere, Stingray/Spacetraveller/SunshineMary/Redpillwifey/etc.. then she will chart her own course as she see’s fit.. under the command of feminism’s siren call.

    As i said.. i really don’t care one way or another whether she chooses to treasure what’s left of her sexuality or philander it away to every tom, harry, dick before giving the leftovers over to the person she would claim to love. As long as she can do it honestly and make sure she has no compunctions about lying if/when the guy ends up asking for the number. Without fudging. Without lying. Without ommision ever time she ever performed a sexual act with a different man. If she can do it honestly, i don’t give a fuck how she carries herself.

    So long as she doesn’t end up like this whore. [link]


  45. “You are only seeing the top 20% of men, the 80% you’re not attracted to are invisible. Ergo, you think all men are having sex. False.”

    In Ashley’s defense, her skewed perception is probably not entirely due to apex fallacy (though that’s likely a big factor). Something else to consider is male dishonesty re: their rate of sexual success. After all it’s not like men who aren’t getting any action go out of their way to advertise that fact to people. No man wants anyone — and especially any women — to think he’s a loser who can’t get any.

    Most women would be surprised at how many of their male friends and acquaintances who brag about their supposed “pickups” have actually been celibate for months.


  46. Good point. My only concern is that for someone with Ashley’s relatively good looks and youthful age, and in light of the fact she’s had multiple proposals already from sexually aggressive men, i simply don’t think she’s surrounded by a pool of beta incel’s who have to use false bravado to save face in front of her. When beautiful people are surrounded by beautiful people, the royalty tends not to take notice of the peasantry until the revolt comes knocking at the castle walls.

    But given the conversations me and her had in the past about LJBF and friendzoning, it would not surprise me that her “friends and acquaintances who brag about their supposed “pickups” have actually been celibate for months.”


  47. Why do you consider sex with me the ultimate benefit for them, but not the other way around? Women want sex just as much as men do. I know they aren’t going to marry me. I don’t care, which is another surprise to a lot of men I know. Many of them think all woman want to do is get married and have babies. I have no problem dating a guy for fun, knowing that it won’t turn into marriage. I have done so before.

    I’d consider myself pretty accepting. I have accepted those guys that most of my friends would pass up on because she’s too this or too that. He doesn’t have a good job, a higher education than high school, smokes, etc. I’ve never tried to change a guy. All I ask is that I get treated with respect. If there comes up something that I can’t accept, I tell him I have to move on because he’s not right for me and that he deserves someone that can accept that trait about him that I can’t.


  48. Either you’re a quick reader or your skimming over everything i ask you to read n research. Hmmm.

    Ok one more.
    http://www.torontosnumber1datedoctor.com/NEWSLETTER%20ARTICLES/boyfriend_girlfriend_sexual_past.html

    I don’t know what your end game is, but you’re treating today as if it won’t affect tomorrow. I seriously hope you don’t fall in love with someone down the road, someone who may end up with a much lower count than you, and who will feel robbed of something special as you gave it away to so many individuals for fun. If you couldn’t treat your sexuality seriously, i’ll guarantee you he won’t take you seriously either.

    So do yourself a favor and start looking for a high number man now, who won’t blink when you give him a double digit number in the teens, twenties or thirties. Your hurdle will be convincing a high number guy why you’re better than the next girl who will give it to him for less effort than you. Once you feel like getting off the fun train and get on board the settle down intimacy train, you’ll find most of them have left the station because they don’t want to be with a woman that will be a constant reminder of the scarcity they endured, who will feel like he showed up to the party a bit too late and everyone got to put their chips in the dip first.

    Please understand, i’m not criticizing your want of sex. That’s not what this issue is about. You can have all the sex your heart desires. It’s your partner count in question, and it shows poor gatekeeping, filtering, and loyalty. The guy you fall in love with down the road will not care how you try to spin the number, how many men were ‘great guys’ vs. ‘assholes’ vs. ‘just happened’. That guy you fall in love with will only know you gluttonized on your ease of getting laid, showed a lack of self control like a bull in a china shop and no ability to filter men for quality attributes beyond being ‘hawt’, appear to be a flight risk and will have questions of loyalty. He will question himself and know you are comparing him to every guy you had whether you agree or not, at some point you will.

    So do us both a favor and fall in love with an alpha who’s nailed tons of women and won’t be broken up about the fact that X number of men got to experience the best of you before he did, because he got his fill too. Course, he most likely will want more, so you better get ready to introduce yourself to another term.

    Soft-Harem.


  49. […] On Cheating; The Kentucky Derby; This shouldn’t really be news, but…; Feminist uproar over Objectification in Cancer Research; I should be charged with Animal Cruelty; […]


  50. I don’t know what you consider a high number, and how age factors in with that, but I don’t think I’ll have much of a problem since mine is lower than most by comparison. I have trouble finding men over 20 who have slept with fewer than 3 women, unless they lie, but thanks for the advice.

    I’ll be quiet for now and read your links. Thanks for those by the way


  51. M3:

    I shouldn’t spill more pixels on this, but…

    It’s dawned on me why Ashley sees sex the way she does, and why attractive men see sex the way they do.

    It’s because sex — and men — are commodities which are totally available to her. Like water from the tap — always there, always reliable, plentiful, abundant, and available at very, very low cost. This is a young woman who has already received and declined two marriage proposals. She can snap her fingers and any one of a number of men are available to her at any time.

    She does not understand that most men do not live this way.


  52. Come to my neck of the woods, i’ll show you tons of men who haven’t had any. It’s your crowd, they have more options. How would you rate these men in terms of looks/attitude who claim higher than 3 women (for the record i only had 1 woman until i was 29, and went years without sex at all but thats for another post)

    Long reply. Sorry if i come off as an asshole at any point past or present. It’s not my intent.

    I’m not trying to disparage you as a person. From all accounts, you seem like a sweet kid at times and you are very attractive. You’ve grown up with a golden spoon. It could be quite hard to see how many destitute males live on the other side of the tracks.

    What i consider a high number is irrelevant to you because you and me are not destined to be a couple now or in the future. The only person who you should care about whether the number is too high is the guy who you fall in love with somewhere down the road. And when that day comes that you want to settle down and he offers himself to you for a lifetime, a commitment to you and solely you, forsaking all others (as monogamy requires) which is the greatest gift HE as a man can offer (especially if he has options).. then the greatest gift you can return for that is by showing that you were extremely selective in who you allowed to show you the greatest intimate love possible. Sex can be animalistic, but it is also how men who REALLY love a woman want to show them that love. They want to know that by you letting them show you that love, they came above all other men in you granting them that.

    If you let dozens of men randomly have you, it shows you’re not very discriminating about *who* you allow to ‘love’ you and that it’s not a very special thing or even very desirable to show love towards you because you simply treat it as ‘sex’. Making love to you loses it’s special significance. You let other men ‘love’ you for such a low price it cheapens the very idea of love. Why spend the time to love, when a simple gratuitous animal fuck will do.

    Put it to you this way. You’re cute. I’d do you and even care enough to get you off. But i wouldn’t commit to you. Every day i would feel that i need to ‘catch up’ and experience as much ‘fun’ as you did in your day. Regardless of your feelings and wanting to lock my commitment down and being monogamous, i’d tell you that i still want to go out and sow my wild oats. Then we’d be even and on par. Would you entertain that idea? I don’t think so. And why? Because you value my commitment too much and it would hurt on a visceral level for me to profess my undying love to you WHILE going out and fucking random women on the side to catch up to your number.

    Women guarding sexual access = Men guarding commitment. If a woman chooses not to guard her sexual access in a meaningful way.. why should a man want to guard his commitment?

    So let me reiterate Ash you cute kid. I don’t mind you enjoying sex. I want all women to enjoy having sex. What i want them to display is being selective of partners with regards to long term behaviors. Multiple ONS and randoms reward men who do not love you nor wish to commit to you and punish those who would like to commit with you. That’s all im saying. Enjoy as much sex as you’d like, *with* a minimum amount of partners who actually respect and care for you. Because if you don’t have enough self respect to ask for that, why should anyone respect you later on down the road when it will really matter?


  53. One last thing..
    “I’ll be quiet for now and read your links. Thanks for those by the way”

    I’m not asking you to be quiet, silent or shut up. I wholeheartedly approve of you asking questions, seeking advice and debating (i will admit, it can be frustrating on my end and i can get a touch emotional over this, as i was one of those guys girls like you never noticed alas). But this isn’t about proving you right or wrong. We just want you to look at this from all perspectives, not just your own, and how it affects others, not just yourself so you can make the best and most informed decision possible that you can live with, along with your future partner.


  54. […] Good ol’ M3 had a post that I thought was both hilarious and common knowledge. Big surprise, girls with daddy issues are sluts. Even blue pill me knew this, so I was surprised when on my way in to work today I went back to his […]


  55. This whole comment conversation was crazy good. I’m sad I missed it – didn’t think the post was controversial at all, simply hilarious.

    Anyways, started to write up a comment earlier, but it both got long and I had no idea where to put it in reply, so I tossed a giant long post up at my site in response. Check it out.

    You know you want to 😉


  56. Can you please point to some studies and the specific data within them that confirms your statement? The CDC’s latest sexual behavior report shows that men and women are nearly identical in the 15-17 year old category, pull ahead slightly in the 18-19 year old category, and then fall behind in the 20-24 year old category. When you consider the high likelihood (due to the slut/stud stigma in our society) that men are over-reporting and that women are under reporting their virginity, I don’t see how it’d be possible that men are losing their virginities at a younger age.

    Here’s the report I’m referring to, specifically to page 10:
    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr036.pdf


  57. M3 said:
    “Forgive me if i’m assuming that you are following hypergamy to a tee, and you are surrounded by and only noticing the high count guys because you are a very attractive woman surrounded by only the most confident alpha characters trying to clean up with you. ”

    Look guys, while Ashley is not ugly, I wouldn’t call her “very attractive.” While everyone has their own definition of what they find attractive, all of her pictures are basically glamour shots, and I can tell you right now, calling her “very attractive” is being pretty generous. Maybe it’s from living on the West Coast, but I’m reasonably travelled. Her pictures are public, I can’t be the only one:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/missashleyxo/7201656964/in/photostream

    She’s already beginning to lose the nice skin and when she hits 30 nearly noone will consider her “very attractive.”


  58. Thanks for clearing that up. I guess I just started to assume I was getting annoying, which I probably am to some people. But I’m glad you know I’m not here to troll or cause problems. 🙂


  59. Thanks for that. It’s disappointing how men and women aren’t truthful about their virginity and partner number. Social standards find men with higher numbers as boastful while women are pressed to having lower numbers and maintaining virginity. Men are in some social circles shamed for having low numbers. It could possibly go to show that shame doesn’t cause anyone to stop doing what they want to do or to be more change their behavior, but rather change just what they are telling people.


  60. M3, I have a quick question. Are there any links with a rundown of the definitions of alphas and betas? I think I have a decent idea on what they are, but I’m not sure.


  61. I agree, but until sex becomes as readily available to men as it is to women, this social stigma won’t change. The reason that men are generally praised if they are able to bed women is because it’s a difficult thing to do. Women on the other hand are shamed because it shows a complete lack of impulse control on their hand to have a lot of sex with a long list of partners. There are emotional downsides to a woman that has a very high partner count as well which aren’t favorable to a long term relationship.

    Did you have any studies or specific data for us to back up your strong statement alluding to this data existing? I noticed you didn’t address this.


  62. Ash-
    your life, your choice. i wish you the best. honestly. i’ve talked with HUNDREDS of women that ask, “why am i single? i have a great job, great education, i have all this experience. what gives.”

    my answer is ALWAYS the same- “well, tbh, you need to start looking for a gf. because all that shit mentioned means SHIT to men. all those qualities are what attracts WOMEN!”

    and i really feel bad for these women. i do. i have ZERO bitterness towards women. seriously. but the fact of the matter is- WOMEN have created the current SMP. as a man, i just have to learn to thrive in it. and i have.

    the truly sad thing is- i meet VERY FEW women that i would consider “marriage material”. and to be honest- marriage itself is just too risky. so i shall be avoiding it all together. more than one women on my site has commented that the same men that SHOULD be marrying and becoming fathers are opting out.

    so agian. best of luck to you.


  63. No, because there is no *proof* that women suffer emotionally from higher sex partners.


  64. Why is it that it shows a lack of control? That sounds like a judgment or assumption? I mean, it *could* be to some women. But not everyone who makes a decision or takes a risk does so out of lack of control, right?


  65. You stated:

    “Any study you can find will tell you that women have less sexual partners in their lifetime than men do and men lose their virginities at younger ages than women do.”

    Then I stated:

    “Can you please point to some studies and the specific data within them that confirms your statement?”

    Then you stated:

    “No, because there is no *proof* that women suffer emotionally from higher sex partners.”

    Could you please address the original question regarding studies and specific data?


  66. Ashley Pariseau said:

    “Why is it that it shows a lack of control? That sounds like a judgment or assumption? I mean, it *could* be to some women. But not everyone who makes a decision or takes a risk does so out of lack of control, right?”

    You are right. What I said I meant as a generalization. Generally when women sleep with a high number of partners, they show lack of impulse control which to most men is a severely negative quality when it comes to having a serious long-term relationship.

    Women are shamed far more than men for being promiscuous, it doesn’t stand to reason that men would change their behaviour when by and large they are RARELY chastised for it. It would stand to reason that they would over report if anything.

    You also miss that men with low numbers generally would rather have higher numbers, but it’s not something they can achieve. Remember that generally women can get sex practically by snapping their fingers, while men can get sex only if they have the right qualities, attitude, and passable looks.


  67. @ Ashley:

    “there is no *proof* that women suffer emotionally from higher sex partners.”

    Whether women have emotional pain from having a higher number of sex partners has not been studied. I think this is for a couple of reasons:
    1. Women have notoriously poor insight into the causes of their emotions. IOW, they feel a certain way, but they don’t know why and cannot articulate why. Thus, anything you might ask women about this simply isn’t very reliable.
    2. I don’t think researchers would ilke the results.

    What we do know is that one study has found a direct relationship between the number of a woman’s sex partners and incidence of first marriage divorce. IOW, the more men she sexed, the greater her risk of divorce.

    We also hear story after story after story of women saying they had a number of sex partners in their past, married, then

    1. reporting a lack of attraction to their husbands
    2. divorcing their husbands for “unhappiness” or incompatibility or other superficial reasons
    3. reporting they felt bonded to previous partners, but not feeling bonded to later partners or current partner

    All this suggests that as a woman’s partner count increases, her ability to bond to a long term sex partner decreases. Women are built to bond to their husbands. What we see is that marriages

    I disagree that women don’t suffer emotionally from a higher number of sex partners. I like women. I don’t want to see them suffer. Too many of them are suffering already. They are suffering because they had sex with too many different men in their younger days and now are unable to be attracted to the men willing to marry them.

    What typically happens to these women is finding themselves in a catch-22 over and over again: They are intensely attracted to alphas who bring the tingle in spades. But those alphas won’t marry them. There are betas willing to marry them, but the women aren’t attracted to them. So by failing to select a good, kind, reasonably attractive man as a young woman, commit to him and marry him; she limits herself to the following Hobson’s choice: continue with alpha STRs, membership in alpha soft harems, or alpha pump and dumps; or marriage to a beta who she finds sexually repulsive. This Hobson’s choice is the prime reason for the ever-growing choruses of:

    1. “I’m not haaaaaappy! I want a divorce!”
    2. “My husband is a good and kind and decent man. I’m just not attracted to him sexually, I never have been, and I feel terrible about it.”
    3. “I wish my husband would cheat, so I can divorce him. I have never been attracted to him.
    4. “I’m 39, I’m single, I’ve never been married, and any hope I have of ever finding someone to marry dwindles with each passing day, and I know it.”

    Ashley: Read. Learn. Understand.


  68. this is geting posted on my site.


  69. […] an interesting discussion going on on  M3′s…. Oh, before I […]


  70. M3, Deti, et al…..

    Why?

    Just because she wandered into the saloon doesn’t mean she’s worth a whiskey.

    Do I need to say the thing about banging your head on the wall?


  71. These standards sound like those that I have heard by devout Christians. “keep your legs closed. only give yourself to the one you will marry. give him your best years.” What if sex isn’t viewed this way by people?

    I get that you have your views, but why try to push them on to everyone else?

    Because if we don’t ‘push them’, no-one else will. When was the last time you heard the mainstream press discuss how a higher sexual partner count makes it much more likely to head to divorce? Oh that’s right, you never have. Thank goodness for the Manosphere.

    http://3rdmilleniummen.wordpress.com/2012/08/26/manosphere-virginity/


  72. Please tell me what Im worth.


  73. No, because there is no *proof* that women suffer emotionally from higher sex partners.

    There is no proof. You’re right. There is a lot of correlative evidence, but no proof. However, Ashley, have you stopped to ask yourself in a very serious manner . . . “What if?” What if that statement is true for the great majority of women? Think about it for a time. I mean really think about it.

    And while women might not suffer in the here and now, what about 5, 10, 15 years from now? There is some disconnect here between you and the men conversing with you, I think, in that you are thinking now and maybe in a short period of time from now and the men are thinking far into your future. It is worth seriously considering what they are saying and listening to their experiences for the sake of your’s and many young women’s long term future.


  74. Ashley, you are ‘worth’ exactly what men decide you are worth.

    You cannot dictate your worth.

    You cannot ‘rationalise’ your worth.

    You cannot fantasise your worth.

    Men who might consider investing in you get to decide your worth. Not you.

    Men understand that actions have consequences. You will be judged on how you behave and have behaved, not on what you say. Men get to do this because men are the gatekeepers of commitment. Women are the gatekeepers of sex. And most men want to commit to a women who is their equal as a gatekeeper. Together their union is likely to be stronger than the sum of their parts. Together they become joint gatekeepers of their marriage.

    Your ‘worth’ is what this whole thread is about. The men are telling you what you will be judged on. Maybe not now, but soon enough.

    You seem to be a decent girl but you should know that your ‘worth’ is already likely less then it was. Drawing down on it further is in your hands.


  75. I won’t tell you what your worth. I dont know you.

    However, a group of men are trying their best to tell you that they value a selective partner that doesnt sleep around when they’re chosing a woman for a long term relationship instead of a sex buddy. They’re being honest with you and have nothing to gain from it.

    Whether or not you personally believe these are true, whether sleeping around is something you do or dont enjoy, whether it affects your own personal ablitiy to pair bond or a majority of women’s ability…. Doesnt much matter to us. We wont be meeting you, we say these things because we like to discuss them and like to help people, if we can.

    Keep in mind that so far 60+ years havent changed how men feel about this. So, if you’re in the market for a husband, it might be good to care about what the potential buyer cares about in you. Just like you’d expect men to care about what a potential woman might be attracted to and care about in them


  76. Cadders that has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Men may decided a woman’s value to them, but only as far as they know, but their personal worth is nothing they even know about, let alone measure. How well does a man even know a woman before he commits to her? Not well. If he doesn’t know her well, how can he tell her worth? Worth is in what IS, not what one thinks what may be.


  77. Also, Stingwray, I could ponder the what ifs about a zillion things in my life. I used to, a lot. Waste of time. I strongly believe there is no point to it. The point I want to make is, everyone is learning this thing called life when they are young. People make mistakes, they learn and move on. I feel like some of you want me to sit here and regret sleeping with men I didn’t plan to marry and feel bad about myself because of it. But just like any other thing in my life, I have moved on. I care about the here and now, not 10 years ago. I won’t be shamed for something I did when I was young and still trying to figure shit out.

    I think about the future too, and I understand why men don’t want a woman is currently sleeps around…but my point was that not very many men and women don’t have a somewhat slutty past anymore. Even the most uptight people I know need two hands to count their partner number once you get to be my age. That, and even the sluttiest girls in high school, the ones who lost their virginity at 14 and had 20s guy racked by age 20, are now happily married with families of their own, so someone thought of them to be marriage worthy. I’m sorry, I just can’t get behind the idea that men my age care that much about a woman’s past. Not many men I personally know give a damn, including my married guy friends, as long as you aren’t carrying some wicked disease.


  78. Hmm. My parents got divorced when I was 11 and I had a horrible stepdad (but still a good relationship with dad). Didn’t turn into a slut, because I thought sex was icky for the longest time (especially casual sex). Although if this factor was absent, I might have turned into a slut.

    After 12, nobody monitored my behavior at all. If I told a parent I was gonna have sex, they would say nothing. But I was so paranoid about pain, intimacy and diseases that nothing happened for a looong time (saved by paranoia?..)

    And I know a few others that had an unpleasant father figure and are “pathological virgins”.


  79. What’s done is done, Ashley. If we wanted to shame you, no one here would be as polite as they are being with you. Trust me. You are not being shamed. The men here want you to stop and think, because you don’t have to keep making mistakes.

    Of course there are men out there who say they don’t care and some of them even truly don’t. But how many of the men who really don’t care do you find attractive? How many of those men could you respect so much that you feel it in your bones? Not the tame respect one feels because one has security. I’m taking about respect that is so strong it’s almost palpable.

    Also, what is happily married? Are these women who are happily married so enamored with their husbands that they will not talk badly about him with their girlfriends? After several years of marriage do their faces still light up like a Christmas tree when he comes home at the end of the day? Do they politely ask their husbands to do things they might need help with are do they give orders? Do they seek the company of their girlfriends rather than their husbands? Do they “not allow” their husbands to do anything?

    Having a family and a ring does not make a marriage a happy one, unfortunately.


  80. Emma
    What I’ve noticed is that not having a father – whether completely gone, one that isnt there in t he ways that count, or is abusive in some manner – is a source of intense polarization. Either you get women that are extremely messed up or ones that pull their shit together and ma


  81. Stupid phone

    Either they pull their shit together or fall apart. Because of the rise of heroic victims and single mothers in America, it’s usually the first.

    From what ive seen in data, the first generation of children to a single mother can break a lot of the statistical norms. It’s when second or third generation in a row of single moms hit reality really hard. Those families have usually been in poverty and withoit any real masculine balance that they can’t compensate because theyve never seen how a masculine family man lives


  82. Just thought i’d share this with you. He’s teaching men your age how to think. He’s got hundred’s of thousands more readers than me so there’s a good chance more and more people in your age bracket will learn this exponentially.

    http://www.rooshv.com/open-letter-to-the-parents-of-american-daughters


  83. It is pretty amazing how Ashley makes this about herself. This is about men deciding if and who to commit to.

    Two points which need to be emphasized here are:

    1. Men have natural repulsion from committing to high count women, due to paternity concerns, which women don’t have. Maybe not all men will disqualify a woman with high count (feminist shaming and brainwashing may help), but men would feel better if they hear low number.

    2. High count women are of huge divorce risk. For women with count of over 18, the probability for divorce is 80%! which means almost certain divorce (Teachman, J. (2003), Premarital Sex, Premarital Cohabitation, and the Risk of Subsequent Marital Dissolution Among Women. Journal of Marriage and Family, 65: 444–455. doi: 10.1111/j.1741-3737.2003.00444.x) and lower marital quality ( http://inductivist.blogspot.com/2011/01/premarital-sex-predicts-lower-quality.html)

    Ashley, you might have an easy time to get a man to commit, the men you know don’t care. etc .etc. etc. It’s not about you. Men in the manospehre are educating themselves about risks for significant damages and thus they can make informed decisions in their lives. No more lies, the truth might hurt you, but we care about the truth more than we care about your precious feelings.


  84. Ashley:

    You and Cadders are talking about two different things. You’re talking about intrinsic worth. Cadders is talking about sexual market value (SMV) and marriage market value (MMV), which, to a man, are the only relevant metrics.

    You, your family, and your God (whoever He is) decide your intrinsic worth. Cadders has it right, when it comes to SMV and MMV. Men decide your SMV and MMV. These are worth whatever a particular man decides they are worth. Just as with a house or a car: Its value is determined solely by what a willing buyer is willing to pay and what a willing seller is willing to accept.

    If women don’t want to be commodified, they ought not act like commodities.

    “Worth is in what IS, not what one thinks what may be.”

    To a man, value is what she presents to him and what he knows about her. Then, he decides whether he wants that or not.

    “How well does a man even know a woman before he commits to her? Not well.”

    A man who commits to a woman without knowing her well (not only what she tells him verbally, but what she reveals by her actions and conduct) is a foolish man indeed. I include myself in that.


  85. “People make mistakes, they learn and move on. …. I won’t be shamed for something I did when I was young and still trying to figure shit out.”

    I want to use this as an example of what I am hearing a lot of women say about their past sexual experiences.

    I am hearing many women say things like

    “I was young and inexperienced.”
    “I made a mistake. I’ve learned and moved on.”
    “I’m not like that anymore.”
    “I didn’t know what I was doing was wrong or that it might hurt me later on.”
    “I was looking for love. I wanted those men to love me.”

    I don’t believe for one minute that a woman has to be educated to figure out that sleeping around with lots of men might not be such a good idea. I just don’t see how women can think that sleeping with a man will magically transform something within him to make him love her. It’s bullshit. These women aren’t looking for love. They are looking for sex.

    As for the mistake — I might believe this if women said they slept with a douchebag ONCE. But most don’t. They do it over and over again, never learning from their “mistake”.


  86. Ashes:

    That was an analogy. True to form, you have taken it as a personal commentary.

    But, since you asked:

    I don’t know what you’re worth, but you are definitely not worth all of the attention you are currently receiving, from some of our more respected minds, I might add. Every time you comment you further prove that you have no desire to understand. That you, Miss, are part of the problem.

    In closing:

    What to such as you anyhow such poets as we?

    Therefore, leave our works, and go lull yourself with what you can understand, and with piano-tunes,

    For we lull nobody, and you will never understand us.


  87. “That, and even the sluttiest girls in high school, the ones who lost their virginity at 14 and had 20s guy racked by age 20, are now happily married with families of their own, so someone thought of them to be marriage worthy. I’m sorry, I just can’t get behind the idea that men my age care that much about a woman’s past. Not many men I personally know give a damn, including my married guy friends, as long as you aren’t carrying some wicked disease.”

    Ashley, no girl should want to be a slut who gets married to “someone”. If “someone” is all a woman wants, then she should not marry in the first place.

    And what man wants to be the “someone” the high N woman ultimately settles for? A man wants to be “YES I will marry you” not “well, I guess you’ll have to do”.

    The men your age who don’t care about a woman’s past are the ones who have no intention of marrying. They don’t care how many men before slept with her because they don’t intend to stick around long enough to find out.

    And to personalize this — the men who don’t care about a woman’s past are the ones who will not marry her They won’t ask her how many men she slept with because they won’t invest in her.

    They’ll happily sleep with her and forgive her “mistakes” because they will never have to live with or pay for her “mistakes”.

    They will happily sleep with her and don’t care whether she was spending time “figuring shit out” because whether she has anything figured out doesn’t matter. All that matters is that she have a pulse and functioning genitals.

    They will happily sleep with her and don’t care if she’s learned anything or “moved on”. They don’t care what she has learned because they will be “moving on” as soon as they are done.

    Past sexual performance matters to a man. Know why? Because past performance, while it is no guarantee of future results, is the best predictor of future results. A past slut is likely to slut again. A woman who can’t stay with a man is unlikely to be able or willing to stay with you. A woman who couldn’t pick a decent man in the past is not likely to be able to develop that skill at age 30.


  88. Deti,

    It’s not that she has to be educated to figure that out,

    – She has to believe her gut over what the world is telling her should be.
    – She has to believe her gut over those Everest highs of being noticed by the alpha.
    – She has to believe her gut over her girlfriends saying her N doesn’t matter.
    – She has to believe her gut over what she wants to believe and what the ever powerful hamster tells her.
    – She has to believe her gut over her those few marriages that all women cling to as *proof* that things can work out.

    Women have an uncanny ability to ignore feelings that are uncomfortable until they reach a point where they can’t ignore them. Unfortunately, that point doesn’t come until mid to late 30’s early 40’s. Then what?


  89. Sting:

    I don’t mean the girl has to be educated in terms of intelligence or how many degrees she holds or how many years of schooling she has had.

    I just don’t agree that a woman has to be specifically told “now, sweet Sally, don’t go f**king every guy who trips your trigger, because bad things could happen if you do!”

    I think women just KNOW that. Or at least they should.


  90. Vicomte:

    I am starting to think you have a point. The more Ashley writes, the less she seems to understand. It is “lalalalalala, I am not listening to you! You guys are crazy! The men I know aren’t like that! The women I know all slutted it up in school and they all got married and have kids! So what, me worry!?”


  91. I didn’t know anyone in high school that was having sex……


  92. So I’ll be fine as long as I don’t make babies without a man willing to be present? Good, the chances of that happening are pretty much zero.


  93. Well…..

    Teen mothers are no Virgin Mary.

    For a good view of what it’s like in your area, go make a male Plenty of Fish account and view how many are single moms. Remember that those are only the ones that had a child instead of avoiding pregnancy or using abortion, as well as the ones that aren’t able to hop from one single man to the next without online resources.


  94. Think what you will but I do have a desire to understand, and only I can state this for a fact. I don’t know why so many pretends to know me so well, assuming what is or isn’t true about me. I know there is a lot that I don’t understand about men or the manosphere, but many of you don’t understand me either. It’s no surprise to me that some of you want to pass me off as some troll, or some “dumb, slutty, princess” as someone who “told me like it is” to my inbox yesterday. It’s going to be a rough few months ahead, but I have faith that we will come to a better understanding in the future.

    I agree that I am getting way more attention than I should be. You should see all the messages I get.


  95. Ashley,
    I would say unless a statement is directly made about you, “Ashley, you’re a _____.” you should think twice about whether they’re really speaking directly to you or speaking in generalities that are not claiming to know you at all, but are just trying to demonstrate TRENDS that we’ve found. Even statements such as “Ashley, right now you’re demonstrating that you likely fall into the stereotypical behavior of a woman. Here, let me demonstrate to you what they are” is less talking about you, and more talking about what we find.

    Really, stop taking what is being said as being said about you. Take it as being said to you about things we see, then think about them. Think about why you take offense or immediately think we’re speaking directly about you. It could lead you to discover insecurities within yourself, unhappiness, or that those trends do apply to you. That you may want to chose to change so that they don’t. Or that you’ll examine the consequences of following those trends, but do so knowingly so that you avoid remorse because you knowingly sacrificed other parts of your life to make those choices.


  96. I was in a special program in high school that was a feeder school for Ivy League universities and other top schools. Trust me, most of us were too busy being nerds to have sex.

    I’m sure people were having sex but I just wasn’t exposed to them.

    Teen pregnancy isn’t the norm. People need to stop confusing extremes with the norm. Most people haven’t lost their virginity at age 18. That means most haven’t lost it in high school. I didn’t even have my first kiss until I was like 17….


  97. *I’m sure some people


  98. And internet dating sites are for society’s rejects…..


  99. Stormy, when I googled the stats I wasn’t able to find a hard study, and it being halloween I’m too drunk to try and find the original source statistics, but every single source on the first page of google says that the average US age of loss of virginity is 17 for women and 18 for males.

    Then there’s weird stats on after college.

    Of all the stats I’m looking at, it appears that nearly half (if not more) lose virginity by age 17. And that 75% lose it by age 21.


  100. I wish people would stop referring to studies that make use of the self-reported sexual habits of women.

    That is for chickens to laugh, as they say.

    Stormy, you are not the norm.

    Ashley is playing that part in today’s production.


  101. I’m 100% sure most girls don’t get pregnant in their teen years. I’m not the only one!

    The one woman I know who was a teen mom was married at the time. But she’s an exception, she started her life way early. Graduated from college at 19, was already marreid with a kid, etc.


  102. Most don’t get pregnant.

    Most, however, get laid.

    Leap knows pregnancy stats are the only concrete data available. We then can extrapolate.


  103. uhhh….I doubt most get laid. I mean maybe if you include stats of teens 18 and 19 yes, but I still doubt most people are having sex in high school. Especially since recent studies show that young people and college students are having less and less sex than before.


  104. The studies are bullshit. Everyone lies.

    Then again, I’m sure things are a bit different in fancy prep schools, but probably not by much.

    For what it’s worth, Stormy, you do seem like a nice girl.

    Most of us men have different experiences, however. Of the many cute girls I knew in high school the only one I can think of that made it out without some solid amount of cock-orifice contact was this one girl who was incredibly annoying and made a barking sound when she laughed.

    A small, anecdotal sample size, but my evidence has been endlessly corroborated in years since. It is not unique.

    And dog girl like, totally sluts it up now, from what I hear.


  105. Maybe you guys are paying attention to the wrong girls. There are a lot of pretty girls in my Christian fellowship. (Yes, I’m a Christian, and I’m attracted to the opposite gender, yes it’s horrible, yes I’m working on it and all my flaws please don’t start a rant about Christian hypocrites). In my high school I’d imagine that some of the popular girls were having sex. But there were a lot of shy and quiet cute girls that weren’t getting any attention. Guys didn’t start noticing me in high school until I started using contacts and got my braces off, for example, and even still a lot didn’t approach me because they either thought I was weird (someone compared me to Luna Lovegood from Harry Potter, and now I get comparisons to Zooey Deschanel, personality wise) or too much competition for them (straight A student, yadda yadda, likes to play video games, etc.). That’s fine because I’m not a huge fan of the dumb jock demographic. So if you hear me talking about men you’re not going to hear me whining about how this subset of the male population doesn’t notice me (actually in college some have noticed me but I blow them off b/c they’re stupid, and because I KNOW there is no way in heck they would’ve been my friend five years ago) or is disrespectful or something or the other…I just avoid it. I go for people who are compatible to me personality wise and who are respectful. Men in the sphere need to stop serially dating harpies and find people who are respectful, kind, and caring. It SEEMS difficult but if you start to eliminate your frustrations, negativity, anger towards the female gender, etc. etc. and start to work on yourself you’ll naturally start to attract kindred spirits. Also if you stand by your values and don’t compromise them, and go for things you’re interested in and STOP CARING WHAT PEOPLE THINK without being an overall asshole you’ll find good people to surround yourself with.

    There’s a subset of people who party, have a lot of sex, drink a lot, and basically make young people look bad. This isn’t the majority. I had to sit through a seminar that basically discussed how everyone thinks that other people drink a lot more than they actually do. And they also did a survey on the people sitting through the seminar. The question was what percentage of people do you think has made out with someone in the past two weeks. A lot of people thought the majority of the room had. A minority of the room actually had. And that’s just making out! There are more statistics, but anyway…

    I doubt people are lying about whether or not they’ve actually had sex…nowadays,sex isn’t something to be ashamed of as it used to be. Number of sexual partners might be a different story.


  106. I always kinda wanted to bang Luna Lovegood.

    I’m not going near the rest of that.

    Tag me, Leap.


  107. I was never compared to her physically (look nothing like her) only personality wise. >.>’


  108. You type pretty well for a space cadet.


  109. Tagged and in.

    Stormy, I would posit that sex happens less frequently than most people, especially women, think. This is due to our sexual natures and thinking others always have it better than we do. Especially the majority of women that dont understand how freaking hard it is for men to get sex.

    I would posit at the same time, that partner frequency happens more often than most think. In the 16-18 year old subset, I would say that if anyone is dating a month and one of then has access to a car, atleast handjobs and fingering are happening if not more. Three months for oral. Six for sex. If either of them have already been sexually active, bump up the speed.

    People forget how much of a time warp seeing the person you’re dating every day imposes on young couples. The adult dater might see someone once or twice a week if not less. Then theres hormones, rebellion, and exploration mixed in.

    Thats saying nothing of any drunken activities.

    This occurred in my church group as well. A few hookups were expected and couples sneaking off when we did our annual mission trip. One of the girls I dated from church wanted to give me road head, and we didnt go to the same school so no time warp. The same girl is now one of the people that watches over the toddlers and those not old enough for sunday schools. Last time I reconnected with her she was bragging about having regular threesomes with a married couple.

    Which is when I stopped attending the church I grew up in when I visit home


  110. In B4 Stormy is SHOCKED and APPALLED and KNOWS NOT OF SUCH THINGS.

    Good call on the ‘time warp’ phenomenon. Makes a lot of sense and not something I’ve heard discussed before.


  111. I had friends in high school that went eight months or more without even going to fingering and handjobs. With the boyfriend I had at the end of high school/beginning of college, we pretty much just made out (and sometimes there was some groping).

    I’m not saying young people didn’t have sex, I just think that in college or adulthood relationships would move faster than they did in high school. In high school people are having a lot of firsts. People tend to wait a lot before all these firsts. For those who are more “liberated” after going through their firsts, they’re going to probably do these things much faster sooner, even if they’re seeing someone once or twice a week.

    Also, I don’t know how you could see someone every day in a high school relationship (unless it’s in a classroom, and even still…) much less get alone time. I wasn’t allowed to date. Or hang out with friends. My parents are still cagey about letting me leave the house with my bf and I live nine months of the year somewhere else. I feel like if you’re dating someone on the same college campus where the furthest they live is ~15 minutes away, and your parents aren’t around, you’re going to see them way more often. Just my 2 cents. Obviously this varies in community colleges where most people are commuters. I’m thinking of big research universities where dorm life/frat life is the norm.


  112. Thanks. I don’t think my internet persona is anything like my RL persona.


  113. It’s discussed a lot in pickup artist circles. It’s where ‘bouncing’ and ‘venue changing’ come from. The more time’s you spend with a woman in different locations, the more time is warped in her mind.

    Because of this, the more times you’re able to change locations with a woman that allow you to create a full ride of emotions, the better. You want to go from suspense, to excitement, climax of energy, and comfort, then bounce and repeat. This makes it seem as if you ‘just get her’ and can show her that you can bring these emotions on to her on a regular basis.

    I do think you’re right, however, in that I’ve never seen it put into theory on how it would work in a school setting. So lets look at it.

    Now, you add this all into a school setting. Every class has those emotions built into it – afraid of a test, of homework, a pop quiz. Excitement and climax as she does well in classes that cater to feminine learning styles. Comfort and a dash of more suspense as she’s on the way out the door and handed her homework.

    Bonus points if she haaaaaates school. It makes her unhaaaaaaapy.

    It adds extra importance to the drama, because the classes bore her and feel like crap. Thus primacy to the boy she’s dating and the drama life. But even for the girls that like school, it’s a rush. You don’t have to even be popular to participate – every subset of groups in high school have drama and make themselves out to be cooler than those prep kids, the drama nerd, the band geeks, the jocks, whatever. They have a reason. Then they have inter group conflict. You get the same rush of emotions. And the boyfriend gives her an outlet. If she hates school, she looks forward to the drama EVEN MORE.

    And pop culture makes the boyfriend the figurehead of all drama. He is either the eye of the storm or the lightning rod depending on the dynamics between the two people – but usually the female frame will trump the male in high school simply because they’re better and more practiced at it at this point. They’ve practiced since kindergarten, where boys are just entering their first plays on the field.

    Anyways, there’s time warp – school edition in a nut shell

    BUUUUUUT WAAAAAAIT JOHNNY! THERE”S MORE!!!!!!

    It also has an expansion pack! Free downloadable content! New zones! Higher stakes! Bigger drops and harder epic bosses!

    CHURCH EDITION!

    Hamsters line up to battle in formations with angels against boys and demons. Pitting themselves and their grrrrl powa need for self fulfillment, growth, and sex against that of demons and boys. Because obviously God does things for a reason and it’s all that dirty boys fault anyways.

    NEW STAKES! Now your immortal soul is at stake. All emotional status’s are felt twice as strongly, give twice the boosts to your grrrrl powers and twice the detriments to any evil masculine auras you encounter

    NEW ZONES! You might think it just applies to Church, Church Parking Lot. But there’s whole new worlds out there! Soup kitchen! Central Park! Industrial Areas in need of Help! EVEN UNLOCK AFRICAN ADVENTURES VIA MISSIONARY ACHIEVEMENT STATUS!!!!!!!!

    NEW POWERS! Linked combos of shame, confession, religious empowerment, and forgiveness!

    NEW ALLIES! Call upon your church pastors to preach sexual responsibility to the beta boys as a distraction while you go grab an alpha in the choir loft

    NEW BOSSES! Get that bad boy alpha that is forced to go to church by his parents. Or the DETI’S FAMOUS F**kbuddy Rockbanddrummer, now revamped into that hot alpha stud that plays the acoustic guitar for the youth groups worship band.

    NEW CAREER PATHS! New, moral reasons for that abortion! Friendly forgiveness of child slaughter or moral backing on child support rape! NOW WITH EXTRA HELPINGS OF SHAME for that asshole who knocked you up.(extra helpings of shame may or may not come with diminishing returns)


  114. I started having fun. Might have gone overboard.

    ….Totally worth it.


  115. My friends and I all acknowledged we were losers. We never cared.

    I never dealt with much intergroup drama (as in, people within my group of friends getting mad at each other), but there was some intragroup drama (kids from the popular groups got tired of trashing each other so would mess with people just to watch them fall apart, and enjoy it. Now they go to state schools and I laugh b/c I will probably be their boss one day). Intergroup drama seems to be really popular among people the lower their IQ is.

    I think also, the reason my fellowship group is a bit different for a few reasons. First off, no one’s parents are forcing them to go. Second off, fellowship and bible study require active participation on some level. People who say they’re “Christian” because they go to church on Sunday usually are not going to be seen in fellowships where you have people actually holding you to your word.

    I feel like college has so many more social interactions than high school though, I’m frequently drained. And my job requires me to be social….:(


  116. Sounds about right, to me.

    I’m well aware of the PUA venue-change concept, but I never put together how the governing dynamics would apply to a teenage(ish) relationship, where you would be seeing each other very often, compared to an older dynamic with less time spent together, or at least less inconsistent time, not having to work around parents.

    Church is a bit out of my element, but I can see how that would work, as well. What could be more exciting? That said, as an atheist, I have always felt that a lot of these religious folks are being incredibly cavalier with their immortal souls. I wouldn’t fuck with them.


  117. Stormy, I would say that your high school experience differs greatly from mine then.

    Our high school had a great deal of freedom. Open campus lunches. Study periods that were school wide.

    I was also greatly involved in as many intramural activities as I could be. Soccer, Wrestling, Theatre, Chess club, a year in the school paper, Hunting and gun sports, Boy scouts. Hell, even played a bass guitar for about 6 months. Depending on the season and the day, I sometimes didn’t get home till 10 PM due to rehearsals, practice, or scout meetings.

    We also had a very diverse set of economic groups – though all white. Everything from people living in trailer homes to people living in million dollar homes. I would consider myself before parents divorce solid middle class. Afterwards… Maybe lower middle? Hard to tell where the line is. But I saw that all ranges of the economic groups parents didn’t give a damn about curfews or what their kids were up to. This is especially true with divorced families. Me and any friends who’s parents were divorced had almost free reign.

    Between all the intramural activies, the arts classes, the theatre classes, and the AP/Honors classes… I hung out with everyone. I wasn’t popular, but I was there for a ton of shit. Everyone drunk. Many smoked weed. I’m sure a few handjobs happened under winter coats on the buses. With hours between practices and some people’s homes half an hour drive away, some a two minute walk away, and no parents home till 5…. Sex happened. People got bored. They’d have adventures, chill, drink, smoke weed, have sex, whatever.

    If they could get away with it, they would.


  118. I participate a lot in my hs. I was the editor of a magazine, I took AP/IB classes plus dual enrollment at a local college, I was the top of my class and the founder and president of a few clubs. That didn’t mean I was popular or bff with people, though people I didn’t know sure had fun taking (verbal) hits at me for being weird. In retrospect it was probably a lot of envy.

    The drama I did personally experience usually involved girls being stupid or nasty to me or guys fighting over me. But I was removed from a lot of it because I was so focused on being the perfect student.

    There was a group that partied on weekends and smoked pot but I’m not stupid enough to think they were the majority.


  119. Yeah, I hadn’t thought about it till now either, but it makes a ton of sense. More time, less parents, less moral reasons not too.

    Church is mostly the same. At least, it was for me. I grew up in the mountains very near my church. It was a local hang out for a lot of us. Many of us were involved in the choir, the sunday schools, any bible studies during the weeks aimed at kids.

    Then we’d hop in a car and go on an adventure. Or just mess around the church. Our church was super youth focused. We had church organized overnights at the church, church bowling, lazer tag, water parks, six flags. Hell, I almost got my first BJ at the water park in Denver on a church outing.

    Couldn’t isolate. Story of my dating life.


  120. No one forced us to go either Stormy. Our church was so focused on getting everyone included as youth that it had enough activities to keep any kind of kid around. Go read the comment below I said in response to Viconte.

    Regardless – in both church and school we had ample amount of time between activities. We were encouraged to enjoy the mountains I grew up in. We all became a part of those mountains. As we did so, we explored each other. I could go home right now, this very instant, and know where I could catch 20 kids making out with each other (if not more) in their cars on a saturday night overlooking the city. You know that scene in Grease? There’s enough cars that it’s nearly a group activity in Colorado Mountains every Friday and Saturday night. I could probably go trade liquor for weed there too. I guarantee you I’d find church kids in those groups too.


  121. All the different groups I hung out with smoked and drank. Maybe not every weekend, but they did it. Honestly more of them probably smoked weed than drank. It was easier to get.


  122. Viconte and Stormy
    Maybe I’m just a rare, special case. Close enough to the major city of Denver (30 min away) to get easy access to cheap everything. Far enough away that we lived in the mountains of Colorado (45 min to ski slopes and could easily sled in anyone’s back yard). There was enough money from the upper class to give a good time to the lower class – though from what I saw the lower class never really mixed that much. Each really just had their own fun.

    Enough encouragement by parents and institutions to explore, enough free time to get into trouble. But I can’t imagine that any select group of people 14-18 years old will not explore their bodies as well if they have two hours between school and practice every day and a town to roam in unsupervised.

    I just can’t think of that as a special case. To me, it sounds like a stereotypical middle class american experience.


  123. Hard to, with the Big Man looking over your shoulder.

    I’m starting to enjoy Stormy’s tales of undersexed high school students, protective parents, Church fellowship, and spacey chicks.

    A world without the morning after pill.

    Tell me more of this strange place. What sorts of fauna dominate the landscape?

    Then again, dominate seems too harsh a word…


  124. Sounds about right.

    Then again, everyone thinks their experience is typical.


  125. I’m talking about a fellowship at a college. These people haven’t been together since childhood. I didn’t grow up going to church either. Not everyone in my fellowship has. Most people chose that for themselves.

    You’re lucky you grew up in a beautiful area you could explore. There are people who walk around my neighborhood in suburbia but beyond that, not much else. leaving the little safe neighborhood isn’t a good idea, unless you want to get run over or mugged. I’ve walked a few miles around my city before and had to deal with endless honking and catcalls. I’m lucky that’s all I dealt with .

    The nature of my school was that it brought a lot of kids from a lot of different neighborhoods (application only) and was a fairly even mix of different races and incomes. As a result even though I wasn’t really allowed to leave and go wherever I wanted on the weekends, or between activities (I either took the bus or my parents escorted me everywhere, I wasn’t allowed to drive), this sort of thing wasn’t strange to me, most of my friends either lived far away or had the same restrictions placed on them by their parents. My boyfriend met my parents on our first date. People I know find this bizarre, but I think it’s normal. Everyone I date has to be presented to my parents first. Might just be the culture I was raised in. My boyfriend didn’t find it weird either.


  126. Haha. I go back and forth on if I wish it was a world that I had found. I considered myself lower middle class of the sexual economics of high school (though not in those terms). Didn’t start getting physical till 16 really, despite my best efforts. But the things I did start landing moved quickly. Nothing lasted more than two months – making out was immediate. Any of them that lasted more than three weeks had hands going everywhere. One chick that I made out with three times went down on me the third.

    Didn’t have P/V sex till end of Freshman year of college though. It was with a chick back from high school though. Crazy bipolar girl (literally diagnosed). Which was my second bipolar that I dated. The first was on medication for it though. It was like dating a wet fish.


  127. I almost always was presented to a girls parents, but never presented to mine own if I could help it. I was as vague with them as I could be about my dating life, and they were fine with that.

    80% of the kids at my school probably had cars though and could go where ever they wanted. No bad parts of town to avoid. Suburbia 101 meets mountains 101 on the edge of the city life, but more than far enough away you couldn’t walk to a bad part of town.


  128. Fair. I submit to the jury, a picture of my home town from the makeout spot I was talking about earlier at sunset. Just because I was curious and found a gorgeous picture. The light’s on the right extend to the horizon, which is the city, Denver.

    Anyways, I’m off to a Rusted Root concert. Fun chatting with ya all.


  129. wet fish?

    I feel like bipolar disorder is becoming so common. I’ve met three bipolars in college, all dudes. And one schizophrenic. Except for one who was a little weird, you’d never guess the other three had any sort of mental illness.

    I’ve noticed that some guys tend to attract women who are a little unhinged in some way.


  130. The problem with my city is that the middle class and wealthy neighborhoods are almost always surrounded by a ghetto. There’s also a lot of racial segregation. You’ll have a couple of miles of really nice areas and then right away you hit the slums. It’s crazy.

    I think a boy’s parents don’t care much who he’s dating. I met my boyfriend’s parents early on and I’m friendly with them, but they don’t care much what he does. He’s fairly independent.


  131. I’m just not saying that people don’t have sex or don’t do drugs or don’t drink…I just think that the people who do all those things, especially that young, are in the minority. From my experiences.

    I think people in the sphere keep exposing themselves to the same environments. You have to have an inner alarm system and just listen to it. And don’t compromise your values.

    I’ve talked with men in the sphere who talk about how disasterous their ex wives are, and then mention something like they always wanted to have kids but their ex wife had her tubes tied before she met him, or maybe she was like a million years older than him, etc. etc.

    Good thing about game is it’s teaching you not to make stupid mistakes like that and compromise your values again. Bad thing though is it teaches you that all women are like your ex wife. I guess it’s a defense mechanism but it’s not good to live that way. Just my two cents.

    I’m done talking now.

    here’s nice music.


  132. Stirling’s great. Love her work. She puts out a lot of good stuff.



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