For posterity’s sake that words should not be disappearedJune 28, 2012
1. succeeding or future generations collectively: Judgment of this age must be left to posterity.
2. all descendants of one person: His fortune was gradually dissipated by his posterity.
I take no major credit for this post.. it wasn’t written by me 🙂
The reason this post exists is because i am a staunch libertarian and believe that opinions and ideas should be free to live and die by their own merits, and not by the swift cutting hand of an editor trying to silence words that do not conform to their ideal framing of the world. It does not matter if the silencer is a nice lady who you like or a man with a funny stash who likes to cast unwanted books into the bonfires with great joyous ceremony, band-playing, “fire oaths,” incantations and playing songs such like Der Königgreatzer.
Unless a specific death threat or assassination of character, (or in a blogs case EXTREME trolling) i can’t see why someone’s opinion about something should be stricken from the records of history and time. Even if it goes against the ‘mission’ you’ve driven your life’s work towards, simply hitting the delete key because it offends your sensibilities is wrong wrong wrong. If your blog is a place where you have extremely high traffic from both male and female members looking for information, ideas, debate, etc.. regarding the dysfunction that is the current SMP, then they are not simply going there to hear ‘your’ side of the story, they want it all. They don’t want to be TOLD what to believe, they want to make that informed decisions on their own.
And by redacting or removing vital points of view from a running thread, points of view which have as much merit as any other point of view, you are not only insulting the people who come to your site to read and judge for themselves.. you are harming people by purposefully withholding information, thoughts, ideas, analysis that might allow them to take the correct course of path their lives need to head towards EVEN if it is at odds with your current mission.
I don’t think i need to actually write down the site in question or the operator.. most all of you who comment know. So without further delay i present to you the comments that were redacted in what i think is the correct chronological order in which they appeared. If anyone wants to correct me, please send me a line and i’ll fix it. So let’s get started, after the jump.
This conversation that took place on a thread regarding the ethics and morality of ‘lies of omission’ regarding what clear lines of demarcation need to be in place in order to make one form of omission acceptable vs. another omission immoral. The participants who had their comments axed were Obsidian, Wudang and Deti. I fished all these out of my email after they were wiped off the site. This MAY get me banned, time will tell.
The first 2 comments by Wudang still exist (i believe), the remain comments after go bye bye.
The key for me about seeing other women at the same time is if she understands or don`t understand that you are also seeing other women. She can know this because she asks and you tell, she can know it because you tell without her asking, and she can also know by you INDIRECTLY communicating it quite clearly OR by just understanding what type of guy you are. It has been my experience and the experience of my friends that get with a lot of women and an extremely consistent finding on PUA boards that when you come across as having a certain level of game women presume with certainty that you are also seeing other women. My observation of female friends and talks with female friends also bear this out. When the question of being formally together eventually comes up explicitly the women always presume that you are still seeing other women up to that point and are never surprised, shocked or angry upon at that time getting it confirmed explicitly. So as long as you come of like that type of guy women know and I have zero problem not stating it explicitly.An example of this dynamic is when guys who are new to game get a girls phone number in a club and she then sees him get another girls number and she gets mad at him for that but when his game gets better women never do that anymore. I have seen that development unfold a bunch of times on different boards.The reason I do not want to state it explicitly has a lot to do with the fact that game has taught me that with women it is almost always beneficial to communicate things indirectly and a lot of things they are perfectly fine with knowing with certainty if not said can be more problematic if said outright.I am not sure exactly why it works this way in this type of case but it might have to do with you saying it feeling humiliating for her and maybe being something that she feels needs to be fought about whenever it is actually said outright. Until then she is fine fighting for you by dating and chasing you alone but if you say it then she sees that as a possibility to push for much more commitment much earlier than she otherwise would have. One thing I have repeatedly been told on PUA boards is that if you come across as a man with a lot of game and one who has a soft harem then women will ask for exclusivity at almost exactly the three month mark. There is probably some sort of chemical thing underlying that since it is so extremely consistent. The explanation I have been given is that this is the point where she absolutely HAS to know where things are going and if you are going to become an item or not. Now if you say something explicitly about seeing other women before that mark it might very well lead her to either push for the full relationship talk or to push for semi exclusivity where you are not officially together but are not seeing other people. As her agenda is to get your commitment she will push for it whenever it is opportune and this sort of statement/talk easily becomes such an opportunity. But if you don`t say it outright but just imply it there won`t be any talk and she won`t try to push you for explicit commitment.As a guy I want to hold of on commitment for a long time because I need time to evaluate properly wether I want to be exclusive with this girl and give up the benefits of my freedom and also, and this is very important to me, to maximize her attraction and keep the initial amphetamine love last as long as possible until it transitions to pair bonding love. The point is that the longer and harder you make her chase the stronger she will feel towards you even after you have become exclusive. A study found that frat members are more happy with their time in the frat even years after they finish college the harder the hazing was. This is the same thing. In addition to building attraction as high as possible I want it to last in amphetamine land as long as possible. People I know in real life often loose a lot of the amphetamine love even after 6 months to a year or a year and a half. I think that is because they become exclusive fast and then see each other all the time and without really thinking about it or understanding it do everything they can to create boredom and betaization. One thing I have found reading PUA boards is that they are extremely good at keeping the initial amphetamine crush going for the full three years it has the potential to operate strongly (in some couples it can, as found doing brainscans, last for life but I highly doubt it does so at the same intensity as the first three years). I want to achieve that both for my own sake and for the woman I am with. A big part of that is the long chase. So even if I might be perfectly sure I want to make a girl my girlfriend after two months I am going to wait until SHE ask if we are together, I will not do it myself. Doing it myself looses me points and having it earlier looses me points. So a big part of avoiding the explicit “you know I am seeing other people talk” is avoiding triggering her “here is an opportunity to push for more commitment earlier than I thought trigger” and getting drama and risking having a shorter chase and hence shorter overall emotions on her part.As for FWB/FB I had to learn the hard way that what matters is not what you say it is how you act. I used to think that as long as I said this was just sex that would set the right frame and I would`t have to worry about anything. It turned out that what I said meant nothing as long as I was as cuddly as I a naturally am and showed as much interest in her as a person as felt normal for me with someone I saw that much. I learnt that what mattered was how I behaved and wether that sent boyfriend signals. Now I take extreme care in avoiding that. That is a bit hard for me because of my natural inclinations. What I learnt to do from the PUA TVA_OSLO was to set the frame of us having a crazy sexual relationship where we can explore everything we want, be honest about all fantasies and make everything an exciting new adventure and keep things fresh by not seeing each other too often etc. By framing it like this it is clear that it is a FWB, it does`t sound like you know this is JUST sex which sounds like a let down and you get all the stuff in bed you could hope for and because everything is framed so much as about being about sex and sexual exploration it further reduces the risk of her getting feelings.
“If they don’t ask, they probably don’t want to know.”
I have noticed on non PUA and non manopshere forums that there are a not insignificant number of guys who never asked and some of them say outright they don`t want to know. I`m not sure exactly why but I think it might be because they don`t want pictures in their heads or to make it a reality they need to think and feel about. If they don`t ask they can sort of just imagine her with him and never think about others.
THE FOLLOWING POSTS WERE THE ONES THAT GOT NUKED
Hello Ms. Walsh, Everyone,
As per usual, interesting post topic.
Alas, you miss the mark; the problem isn’t one of abstract “lying”, be that by “omission”, or otherwise.
The problem is THAT WOMEN LIE/DECEIVE/MANIPULATE MORE THAN MEN DO WHEN IT COMES TO THE SMP.
That, is the problem; and worse, WOMEN ARE NEVER CALLED ON IT, by other Women, or Men for that matter.
Men are constantly called out for these behaviors, in ways big and small; they are constantly called on to put each other in check for it, and so forth. There is no analog for Women doing any of this. THAT again, is the big problem here.
The issue isn’t “lying”; it’s when said “lying” doesn’t happen to be in the interest of a particular Woman at that particular time. That, is the problem.
You and I are intimately familiar with the works of Prof. David Buss. I have both his books. In them both he makes all this very clear – Women lie more about their age, were deceptive clothing/cosmetics to hide their true appearance, tell unwanted suitors that they have a boyfriend or husband, and of course, they can and will use Men for drinks/gifts/meals and then sexually abscond. All of this is clearly document, again, even Buss has written about it quite at some length.
So, until or unless Women, as a group, begins to take themselves and the topic of “ethics” seriously, fewer and fewer Men will.
I’m just sayin’.
In other news, here’s the newest/latest from the new and improved O-Files:
Gabi Gregg “Fatkini”: Response To Readers
I second Obsidian post. Women also lie, massively, to guys about what kind of sex they have had. They especially do this when the man is in the provider box and they want to cover up the naughty things they did with someone who gave them more primal attraction and which they don`t feel inclined to do with him since he does not trigger the same primal attraction. I am sure those guys would be thrilled to know that the reality isen`t that she does`t like xxx it is that she just does not want to do it with him because he does not trigger a primal submissive response. Women also lie, to an insane degree, about what their orbiters actually mean to them. You won`t hear them admit that they actually understand he has a crush on them. You won`t hear them admit that they enjoy not just the friendly feelings but the subtly sexual pedestaling attention and that is often the real reason for the friendship. Women also tend to feed the poor orbiters just enough hope of something happening in the future to keep them around. The guys who she goes on dates with just for the attention are deceived. The guys she goes on dates with just for drinks and food are deceived. Women also lie or omit about just about anything they feel puts them in a negative light. I just have learnt to expect half truths from women to a degree that I don`t from men. I always have a level of lingering doubt about what women say because I know they so often say what is socially opportune. If you ask women about dating or relationship advice they will far too often tell you either what they feel will sounds like the thing to say or what makes themselves or team women sound good rather than the blunt truth. To a large extent this isen`t easily accessible to women for various reasons we have talked a lot about but often when I hear women talk about this stuff I get the feeling that SOMEWHERE you know what you are saying isen`t really true.
COVERT is the feminine strategy so what is one to expect? I think by finally bringing these things up more something can be improved but I think women naturally are inclined to deal so much in the realm of indirect communication, covert strategies and image management that fundamentally you can`t expect the same degree of clear honesty from women. I think for women managing their perception and coming of as innocent and deserving have been absolutely vital whereas for men getting stuff done or dominating have been key. This has allowed men to be bluntly honest because their battle lies more in achieving a rank that stems from real world results and social dominance not so much image management and being perceived as good and deserving. But for women this has been key. I think thats why women have a very hard time dealing with very straight talk and often need to have things wrapped in a way that makes very sure she isen`t JUDGED. So from that perspective I`m actually OK with the fact that women will tend to deal more in the grey area of truth. I judge it differently. I know it feels much worse for them admitting something they feel is socially unaceptable or makes them feel judged so I give them more slack when it comes to that. I try to have empathy for the fact that I know it is harder for them while for me it can sometimes even feel good in a “fuck everyone else I do what I want way” to admit something socially unacceptable. I know it is easier for me to stand alone than for most women. I know that it is easier for me to be blunt with my friends than for them to be blunt with theirs. I know they prefer that I “get” things on my own instead of having to tell me what they like although for me it is fine to explain what I like clearly. So I try to not judge them for that and although I do get ANNOYED I don`t get angry. But, the line gets crossed at stuff like really USING a guy, lying about a lot of what I mentioned before and I think that needs to be talked about more and punished socially more.
Yes, you are correct; the sexes are in what is essentially an evolutionary arms race, and Buss says as much in both his works, “The Evolution of Desire” and his textbook for students, “Evolutionary Psychology, 3rd Ed.”.
You owe it to yourself to get those books. Essential reading for any Gamesman out on the modern day SMP.
All that said, again, your comment, nor does Ms. Walsh, does NOT address my point; I cannot be emphatic about this enough:
THAT WOMEN LIE/DECEIVE/MANIPULATE MEN MORE THAN THE OTHER WAY AROUND OUT ON THE SMP, AND THEY ARE NEVER CALLED TO ACCOUNT ON/FOR IT.
Men are. Constantly. The problem is that Women rarely, if ever, are.
Therefore, we need to stop this sham about “ethics”. It is nothing of the sort. This is about “lying”, WHEN IT HAPPENS TO INCONVENIENCE THE INTERESTS OF WOMEN.
Huge, huge, difference.
Obsidian is right, and nutshells it nicely:
Women lie/deceive/manipulate men more than vice versa in this SMP, and women are never called to account for it. Men are constantly called out for lying, deceit or manipulation. Even the tiniest, most inconsequential male infractions are blown out of all proportion.
The difference though now is that men are recognizing this. Their response?
–refusal to marry
–pushing hard for sex as early as possible (to gauge female interest)
–sharply limiting investment/commitment (to gauge female interest)
–autodumping women when clear interest isn’t shown
So there you have it. I’ve done my part for history. Was i being melodramatic? Maybe, i have a flair for it.
But again, there’s only one reason why i did this…
and i’ll let Indy explain.
Henry Jones: “It tells me that goosestepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them!”
ps-if any of the formatting is fucked up, blame wordpress. i’ve been fighting the HTML tags all night and am too hungry and tired to care anymore. i’m off to eat.
Ok, im back belly full. Just caught one extra snippet that somewhat saddens me.
Mike C, longtime commenter there took up the task of questioning whether ‘her house, her rules’ was the right path to take. Firstly he notes that other comments previously were allowed to stand:
In another thread, there was a poster “Ghost of Nice Guy” whose comments seemed to me far more hostile but were not deleted.
And if you saw the end of that thread you noticed that I had deep regrets about allowing HUS to be highjacked to Libya and back. I’m certainly not obligated to continue making those mistakes….
…Every time I have welcomed or allowed male supremacists to have their say here, it has been confrontational, misogynistic, hateful and incredibly time consuming for me. This last factor cannot be overemphasized…
…One last thing – Ghost turned out to be a disturbed individual, and God help the MRM with men like him on the roll. However, I am actually quite sympathetic to MRA complaints about family law in this country. I gave him an opportunity to have his say because beneath the hate speech was an argument I understand and support.
The comments I deleted had no similar merit, in my view.
To think that their comments mirrored confrontational, misogynistic, hateful language and had no similar merit should weigh heavily on Wudang, Obs and Deti. Her response to Mike C’s secondary inquiry was equally painful to witness:
Your most vocal critics would suggest you cannot handle real debate and want to create an echo chamber.
Since I don’t respect them, I don’t care. I’ll proudly stack HUS up against any one of them and prove I allow a lot more debate than any of them do. I’m also proud of my commitment to controlling for hate speech – the fact that other bloggers allow their commenters free rein reflects very poorly on them, IMO. There’s also some legal question about whether a blogger is responsible for commentary on his or her site. I am conservative in this regard. I do not wish to be put in the position of ever defending the views of these crazies.
Opinions. Ideas. Thoughts. Real life experiences. Anecdotal evidence. They all have a place. If any of you disagree, you are more than welcome to say what you wish here on my site. Free to be debated in the open light to stand or fall through open discussion. Free to say whatever you want to say, even if i think you’re an idiot for saying it. It’s for me to rebut and let viewers decide for themselves whether your words stand or fall.
I guess giving each and every one of you free rein to do so will reflect very poorly on me.
So be it.