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Worth – Put into Proper Context

January 12, 2014

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Happy New Years.

I was in a line up at Walmart today, and my eyes did what they naturally do without any thought or hesitation.

I was checking out women. Cute. Bangworthy. Long legs. Hot. Nice smile. Doe eyes. Lashes. Peacock fashion. The works.

And.. dun dun dun… i was comparing them against each other. Which was hotter than, more doable, better looking etc..

All being done in milliseconds of thought with just hovering glances.

It’s what i do. It’s what the male brain does. I don’t question it, i revel in it. I feel no shame, i was born to do this. It just took me a long time to accept it as who i am rather than twist and contort myself into believing feminist bullshit of constructs and worth.

As i caught myself checking out a really gorgeous woman standing next to a not so well-off member of her sisterhood – a voice in my head from an age past jumped into my head. The sound of a feminist woman telling me

“Oh, so we’re only as valuable to you as we are attractive. Nothing else about us is redeemable or contains value. Our worth is entirely dependent on how hot we look to *YOU* men!”

Or some shit to that effect.

I realized right there in that line, was the voice of feminist thought that was once spoken by me, long before i crossed the Rubicon into the world of redpill.

When i was a beta chump.

Actually, if i read Vox’s list of socio-sexual hierarchy again, i truly believe i was a Gamma, not a Beta. I was much worse and lower of a loser than a beta. I wasn’t attractive and i had no concept of attraction.

Gamma: The introspective, the unusual, the unattractive, and all too often the bitter. Gammas are often intelligent, usually unsuccessful with women, and not uncommonly all but invisible to them, the gamma alternates between placing women on pedestals and hating the entire sex. This mostly depends upon whether an attractive woman happened to notice his existence or not that day. Too introspective for their own good, gammas are the men who obsess over individual women for extended periods of time and supply the ranks of stalkers, psycho-jealous ex-boyfriends, and the authors of excruciatingly romantic rhyming doggerel. In the unlikely event they are at the party, they are probably in the corner muttering darkly about the behavior of everyone else there… sometimes to themselves. Gammas tend to have have a worship/hate relationship with women, the current direction of which is directly tied to their present situation. However, they are sexual rejects, not social rejects.

Lifetime voluntary sexual partners = .5x average

Sounds about right. I was intelligent. I had all the ‘good’ qualities that i was told were what women sought. Yet it all amounted to naught, and that lack of attraction fed into the love/hate thing as i couldn’t reconcile why for all my worth and value i was being left behind. All of it containing zero value because all these qualities were packaged in something totally undesired.

My ability to work hard, be dependable, share feelings, be supportive, nurturing, caring, trusting, non judging, the dad – not the cad… truly the man in touch with his inner femininity and following feminist advice on how to love and respect women and be the perfect guy on paper for a woman should have brought me plenty of options on the market.

“You are such an awesome guy Mike! You will make some girl very lucky one day!”

Just not with you…

Always great enough to be a friend, but not worth a fuck. Always the rock to lean on in times of trouble. But not worth the intimate investment. Beta Bux.. Alpha fucks.

So i laugh now when i hear women speak about WORTH, and how they are annoyed that men place so much emphasis on looks and looking your best – as if that is the defining measure of someone’s worth.

We all know it isn’t. But as always.. context is key.

On paper i was worth more than any of the douchebags that went out with the women i loved during my incel years. Was i being judged? I would use the same language feminists used. Is my ability to make a girl laugh the only factor my worth should be judged against? Was my (lack of) cockiness or confidence the only measure by which my worth as a human being be allowed? I was awkward, i wasn’t physically fit, i wasn’t confident.. BUT i had SOOO many OTHER qualities! Yet it was easy for all women to overlook my worth and follow – oh hows that saying go? – “the heart wants what the heart wants”.

Yea, and so does the dick!

Worth has nothing to do with attraction or desire. You either create the sparks, or you don’t.

When a feminist gets pissed off because you speak of what attracts you, and enumerate them and compare them against the lesser ones.. they get very angry.. because they don’t want their ability to attract a mate to be based on desire. They want it to be based on a checklist of ‘their worth’ and all the qualities they have to offer like being empowered, tough, independent, feisty, full of moxie, intelligent, etc. They want exactly what i wanted before i took my pill. They want you to value them for x,y,z.. not for how they make you feel as a person of the opposite sex who knows what you are attracted to and desire.

Any feminist who uses the ‘worth’ argument is a mirror of the NiceGuys of OKCupid argument. They become what they despise. They complain about NiceGuys not being ‘nice’ because the nice guys want to be rewarded on x,y,z and are always passed up for those who avoid doing x,y,z.. you know.. the attractive guys, fit, funny, rugged, confident and masculine.

Because attraction and desire can’t be negotiated.

And yet, here these same women are complaining that guys are repugnant because they find indicators of youth, fertility, beauty and health sexually attractive, and not so much on x,y,z traits.

Funny that huh.

Now the main part of my post/rant is done, you can feel free to quit, turn your browser off, or go to another sphere site. I’m just going to tell you a fun little story of a conversation me and my girlfriend had at a bar a couple weeks ago – been in my drafts.. and it fits nicely into this post. I call it:

To Talk of Fatties Over a Pint

So my girlfriend and i walk into a pub, we grab a table and prepare to do our monthly burger cheat routine. While we wait for the food and are starting on our drinks, she started doing the cute little shit tests that she does and asks if i would leave her if she gained 50 lbs. I cocked my head a bit, put on my best shit eating grin and wryly said “In a heartbeat luv, in a heartbeat”. She feigned indignation but was smiling through the whole time.

We began talking about females.. and what attracts men (beauty, youth, health, fertility).

It didn’t take too long, my girl eventually relented and agreed with me. In fact, she already did agree with me and she knew it out of hand.. she just wanted to see how i’d respond. Deep down she knows, she doesn’t have to like the reality of it, just not to reject it. Knowledge is power.

Our discussion then turned to pedo-hysteria, and she actually was agreeing with the fact that it’s not wrong for men to be attracted to extremely young women, and that biology should be factored in when dealing with those issues in the justice system.

i actually had to be the one to argue from the position that while from a bio standpoint and evolutionary standpoint, i understand the reasoning for male desire of youth.. that it’s still not acceptable to break age of consent laws for a myriad of reasons:

  1. We don’t live in an era where we have to force kids to become adults early in development for our own survival (popping out kids at 13-15 because we died near 30)
  2. We don’t have the pressures we once did for basic needs or necessities like tilling land or doing tons of labor at an early age which required children to become adults during their youth
  3. We live in a society that affords children the ability to enjoy childhood instead of working to overcome harsh life and reality

And that means we don’t impose sexuality upon them that they aren’t capable of being responsible with because they didn’t grow up learning to respect responsibility at an early age. Back then, responsibility came with hardship.. and there was much guidance under ‘patriarchy’ to make both boy and girls understand the responsibilities that came with sex/relationship/child rearing.

It doesn’t exist today. that’s why we have so many irresponsible girls having babies too soon and too many thugs creating baby mama’s left right and center. They’re playing adults way before they’re ready to be because they were not born of the trials of hardship or the bearers of responsibility.

So how can one adopt a position of taking away a child’s childhood from them by introducing them to the adult world of sex?

There are exceptions to the rule obviously, some women develop much faster and mature to understand their sexual nature much quicker than most. BUT THEY ARE EXCEPTIONS. Girls become very aware of the power of their sexuality at an early age, but they don’t understand the why. The age of majority is a rule to keep the majority of immature children from being abused and corrupted by those who are already adults and capable of using their authority to gain advantage. Just because you can find a few well developed under age female ‘sexual predators’, does not mean you can make the case most teens are ready for it, especially with someone twice their age.

At this point she was still saying she understood the pedo perspective. So to put the issue to rest, i started talking very loudly within the bar, to the point where other patrons were looking over at our table. I didn’t care.. i went into full bombastic mode, reveling in my own wisdom and felt the confidence of my position take over. (My girlfriend was feigning embarrassment and meekly telling me to not be so loud, but the smile and giggles escaping her face told me she was enjoying my ape like behavior of banging my chest confidently and triumphantly)

I bellowed out that the reason i abhor pedo behavior and cannot sanction or justify it (along with the fact i could never imagine my friends daughter being accosted by a horny 30 or 40 year old man) was that biology isn’t the end all be all of human action. We have brains that allow us to calculate variables and repercussions. We don’t merely run on instinct like lower primates. We have the capacity to ignore our instincts.

I looked at my girlfriend square in the eye and said:

You like chocolate right? You like ice cream right? Tastes good right? Well, biologically, you evolved to love the taste of sweet things in the wild to give you energy and fat stores for long periods without food. Doesn’t work well today in a society where food is plenty and the sedentary lifestyle will kill you. (And here is where my voice started to carry) Look at all the fat people around you in life. They’re obese not because of a gland or some shit, they’re obese because they love stuffing their shnoz full of cheap empty calories that send their tastebuds through the roof and give them a narcotic high. They COULD blame their biology and that it’s so hard to resist the allure of the sweet stuff because hey.. their tongues evolved that way. They’re only doing what their instincts command them to do – eat.”

The rest is a best recollection of the story:

And this is where your brain should take over your instincts. To tell you what year you are in. To tell you that just because your tongue loves the taste of Haagendaas, does not mean it’s a good idea to consume a 5 liter bucket of it every day. I feel no sympathy whatsoever to fat people in this day and age of nutritional information about the basic concept of calories in/calories out along with the bare minimum of some form of movement. Instinctively they crave terrible food. Their brains should override instinct with common sense.

So too do i not find sympathy for the pedo crowd. Just as the fat person salivates at the thought of sinking into a fresh Krispy Kreme donut after eating a bucket of KFC (which caused both me and my GF to pause for a second and go ‘mmmmmmm’) .. i understand that craving as much as my cock might reflexively twitch at the sight of a perfectly proportioned 17 year old girl with glowing perfect unblemished soft skin, grabbable hips and ultra tight and wet pussy. Both are evolved. Doesn’t mean both should be acted upon just to be excused by biology.

And both can be curtailed because the society we live in today is much different than the medievalism from which we came. And that’s all the reason we should need for not giving into the ‘but it’s my biology’ excuse. They evolved to serve a purpose that is no longer relevant. We have them, we are not slaves to them.

And if i see any elder men take a pass at my friends daughter between the ages of 14-17… let’s just say Orthodontics don’t come cheap.

40 comments

  1. “And if I see any elder men take a pass at my friends daughter between the ages of 14-17… let’s just say Orthodontics don’t come cheap.”

    You already know why I’m so incredibly relieved to see you write this, but…thank you anyway. There are many on the internet who say otherwise, that it should be legal for a 40 yr old man/woman to have a 15 yr old (or younger) sexual partner, and comments like that always make me extremely nauseous. Once again, I’m glad that you (and others like you) understand that there’s a difference between acknowledging that a 16 yr old girl/boy gets your motor running…and actually ACTING on those desires. You’re awesome, M3!

    As for the concept of worth, I believe everyone has it until they act in a horrible/revolting manner…after which point, they lose it completely. Note that I’m talking about people like Timothy McVeigh, Charles Manson, or Catherine Kieu here…the lowest of the low. When dealing with typical everyday men and women, I greet all with a blank slate. Men of all types get the same respect, as do women. I don’t really know how to live otherwise.

    One note about the idea of feeling ashamed of noticing attractive people: Don’t.
    You, I, and everyone else has the right to be attracted to whomever. Just because I admire a nerdy guy with tight pants, or you covertly appreciate a gal’s nice rack doesn’t mean we are “bad” or believe that these people are worthless except for how much they turn us on. And anyone who actually *wants* the Thought Police to exist must be an exceptionally boring person… ;)


  2. “And if i see any elder men take a pass at my friends daughter between the ages of 14-17… let’s just say Orthodontics don’t come cheap.”

    Its just biology Mr Blue Pill, if she looks good enough and does all she can to look like an adult.


  3. And this was at walmart?


  4. And this was at walmart?

    It was.. and yes. We DO have “People of Walmart” here too, just not on as epic a scale as down south hehe.


  5. I don’t agree with the analogy.

    1)Obesity doesn’t appear in such quantities in every country with abundant food. Anyway, no one ever illegalized buying and eating a lot of food, just to save you from obesity.

    2)If you must punish people who have sex with teens, why not just fine them? People arguing for a high age of consent usually say it’s necessary because the risk of harm is higher. Kind of like driving too fast, right? Well, when we drive too fast, we are risking killing ourselves and others (that’s much more serious than knocking someone up or making them feel bad). But we don’t get lengthy jail sentences, and the law enforcement doesn’t pretend we killed someone when we haven’t (believing in statutory “rape” is about as silly).

    3)A teenager is not a child, it’s an intermediate between a child and an adult. Where I live, sexually active and happy teenagers is not exceptional. Perhaps because we don’t teach kids abstinence. I dunno. But like with food&obesity, I see there are countries where teen sex is not synonymous with trouble. Pretending teens are “children” and should be shielded from the sexual world hasn’t been working out so well for USA, has it?


  6. “40 yr old man/woman to have a 15 yr old (or younger) sexual partner”
    Good enough for the stone age.. but i won’t abide it in the here and now.

    “One note about the idea of feeling ashamed of noticing attractive people: Don’t.”
    Oh don’t you worry.. i don’t! :P


  7. @M3

    “Good enough for the stone age…”
    Lol, if anyone lived to 40 in the stone age!


  8. 1. Yes, it doesn’t appear in every country. Those that appear to have a handle on both 1. self control and 2. strict limits on what is allowed in the grocery store.. do not have the same epidemic as that of North Americans. I was floored when i went down to Buffalo and saw 8 aisles.. EIGHT! dedicated strictly to chips/sodas/snacks/cookies etc. The Denny’s served us 6 pancakes on top of the 3 eggs/sausage/ham/homefries/4 slices of toast for the price of what we would pay for 3 eggs, 2 of any one meat, homefries and toast. The 6 pancakes would be a meal unto itself but it was PART of the meal at Denny’s. And lets not forget the ‘status’ drinks of today’s empowered business professionals (ie. women) with their 10,000 calorie custom Starshmuks lattes and their affinity for red wine by the gallon. This is a uniquely North American thing, even the Italians know to limit their wine to a single glass at dinner.

    2. If you drive over 50km/h, they will impound your car, suspend your licence and make you spend X days in jail while waiting to post bail.
    2a. There is a world of difference between a 19-20 year old guy sleeping with a 17 year old girl and a 40 year old man sleeping with a 16 year old girl. The former are both within a reasonable age bracket to be sexually adventurous, so no, that’s not statutory rape. The latter is predatory, where the experienced man knows how to use a naive girls natural sexuality against her. What i’m calling out is very well aged guys using the advantages they have to entice a teenage girl just coming into her sexual and hypergamic prime to sleep with them. Biology and nature will rue the day, she will succumb without understanding the why.

    3.A teenager is not a child, but is not a rational adult either. Not when it comes to understanding matters of love/mating/biology. The Romeo/Juliet syndrome. One-itus. Soulmates. Twilight Saga romance romcom bullshit. Too many teens simply act in a manner according to the way we evolved. To feel lust as love, to give transcending meaning to basic primal monkey sex, etc.

    http://www.cbc.ca/player/Shows/Shows/The+Nature+of+Things/ID/2188547727/

    This evolution in our brains was to facilitate a want and need to bond and mate to ensure our species pumped out tons of children early. These feelings are chemical trickery to entice mating. And it is teens who are most susceptible. It’s also why they commit the most suicide based on unrequited feelings of love unreturned.

    And no.. im not talking about abstinence or shielding kids from sex. Far from it. I’m talking about giving legitimacy to a bunch of keyboard warriors who bang on keyboards calling out my bluepillness for pointing out that the most redpill of men in the sphere would tear a man to pieces if some old codger started trying to hit it and quit it on one of their daughters. If a guys biggest claim to fame is cruising the strip looking for underage girls to fuck.. oh yea, that’s badass redpill material right there. /sarcasm

    I’m not a father, but i’m very patriarchal/defensive of my friends girls. My best man – would savage any player coming after his girl. My patriarch friend in Trenton, who’s wife popped out 5 girls in a row, would show Mr. Bluepill Biology his own beating heart if he wanted to pull a P&D on any of them. I don’t know who else is married with kids in the sphere, but i dare say they will all educate their girls and then enforce patriarchy from the shadows. The dad with the shotgun making sure the guys motives are sincere.

    I want to stress, we’re not talking about naive teens fumbling about their newfound burgeoning feelings of sex and desire. We’re talking about an experienced man exploiting an inexperienced woman who doesn’t know what the word hypergamy means or why she gets wet in the first place (and vice versa with the explosion of female teacher predators fucking their young students. It is an ultimate betrayal). I can’t put it any more succinctly than that.


  9. @M3 and Emma

    “I want to stress, we’re not talking about naive teens fumbling about their newfound burgeoning feelings of sex and desire. We’re talking about an experienced man exploiting an inexperienced woman who doesn’t know what the word hypergamy means or why she gets wet in the first place (and vice versa with the explosion of female teacher predators fucking their young students. It is an ultimate betrayal). I can’t put it any more succinctly than that.”

    This. All of this. ^^^
    I’m not for abstinence-only “education” either. I’ve had friends in different schools who were “taught” this way, and honestly these teachers are full of shit…making boys and girls feel ashamed and dirty for having functional genitals and desires, not to mention coming down on masturbation. (Yes, because teaching kids that sex is bad unless you’re married…that masturbation is a filthy habit that leads you to premarital sex…and spreading lies about the birth control you don’t even fucking teach them how to use is certainly going to give them accurate ideas about sex. <- Massive sarcasm.)

    Two teens figuring out how to fulfill their sexual desires is not an issue. Heck, I think two younger kids checking out each others genitals isn't that big a deal either…I was 6 when I first saw a penis, when I did an innocent "show and tell" with my 7 year old best friend/neighbor. It didn't hurt either one of us to indulge our curiosity in what our differences were, and certainly wasn't "sexual" by any standard I'd use. Of course, nowadays if our parents had caught us he'd probably be labeled a "pervert" or I'd be called a "whore". Oh innocence, where art thou?

    Anyway, what M3 is talking about is something utterly separate; A full fledged, sexually knowledgeable adult who has a lot more social power/prestige than the child/teen they are attempting to bed. I don't care if it's a woman on boy, man on girl, or gay/lesbian circumstance. In any form it takes, this is a wrongful use of power over someone who is so very much more vulnerable and hormonal than yourself. Preying on a youngling's need for love, acceptance, and newfound sexuality is NEVER tolerable.


  10. White knight fantasy that that is about as likely as rescuing your daughter from European virgin auctioneers. What will happen is your daughter will give blowjobs to half a dozen football players at a party she went to when your wife overruled your objections, have an abortion after having sex for drugs, and contract an STD…anally. It’s OK though, she was just “fumbling” with kids her own age


  11. M3, thanks for the responses. I will write the answer when I’m back from the university.


  12. @Wilson

    This doesn’t happen nearly as much as people think it does, and I’ve yet to meet a girl (or boy, for that matter) who has done half the things you use in your “example”. Most of the boy/girl relationships I knew of in high school lasted about 2 years on average, and were monogamous for the most part…even longer lasting were the gay/lesbian couples.

    But at any rate, I believe this is why both boys and girls need to be taught early on that sex is NOT a game. It has real life repercussions, and responsibility is key. It is good and healthy to have sexual desires, but one should be in control of them and only indulge in safe and consensual ways. Yes, I mean this for females as well as males…boys can be pressured into sex by peers/girlfriends/boyfriends just as much as girls. It shouldn’t happen to *anyone*, and future generations need to be taught to respect sexual boundaries of both sexes.


  13. Well Wilson, i’m betting on a different outcome for those i hold near and dear. I don’t care so much for the rest of the world’s daughters.. it’s up to their parents (success or failure) to bring them up proper.

    The hedonists can circle looking for broken girls to prey on. But if they pick on the wrong girl (my buddies daughters), they’ll be lucky if they fit in a tea spoon when it’s over.

    If you are describing your own personal experience or setting, you got my sympathy and i would simply say, run.. and go your own way and leave that life behind.


  14. With obesity, one hurts primarily themselves, not others (although it’s known that children of obese people become obese as well – and not always solely due to genetics). A paedophile hurts OTHERS – well, unless/until caught and punished.

    Surviving to middle age and beyond was possible in Stone Age, only far less guaranteed than now. I’m sure that Kennewick Man, for example, would agree with me.

    I’m glad that you “get it”, M3, that willpower allows to restrain oneself from instinctual acts. Well, some don’t understand that sheer willpower is not enough to make one act when ones instincts suggest inaction. You need conviction that the act makes sense, heh.


  15. I certainly would not advocate the exploitation of children, but what substantive distinction would there be between banging an “almost legal” vs. banging a “barely legal” (other than the obvious “legal” part of it)?

    Where I live, the age of consent is 17. Should I still be pulverized by you for having sex with a girl who can legally consent?


  16. What is your opinion on the idea of women being eternal children. If 16 is to young mentally…is 30? In your own experience when does a woman wise up and stop chasing cads who can push their buttons? Or is 18 the state sponsored age and any action taken there after of her own free will and choosing?


  17. @Shameful

    The concept of women being “eternal children” is one of inappropriate entitlement and poor socialization…both men and women have reached a point of adulthood by the time they are 19-20. Now, some states have a low age of consent (16) and others have a higher one (18). But the idea that a typical woman of age 20 or higher is still a “child” is incorrect. By this point, they are fully grown…have a reliable menstruation cycle…are safely capable of carrying a full term pregnancy…and should have enough life experience to make good, logical decisions.

    The fact that some *choose* to act childish, to refuse to grow up, to want to be pampered and cared for more than usual is just that: A choice. Even if a study found that 75% of women want to live this way, it wouldn’t prove that they are stuck in a literal child mindset (unlike people who have legitimate mental disabilities). It would show that they’re lazy and don’t want to embrace the difficulties that a regular adult faces everyday.

    Not the same thing.


  18. @ LongLost

    You raise an interesting point. Here’s my take on it.

    Our legal system isn’t perfect, but it’s the best one we’ve got.

    Laws very from country to country, state to state, province to province. The rule of thumb i’d follow is not to entangle with those under it. Teens are not adults until they reach the age where i can legally boot their ass out the door. Parents have until such time to drill whatever values they can into their children before they become legal entities of their own and bear the responsibilities of their choices. At the end of the day you hope they make the right one but it’s ultimately their choice to make. The moment the law sees them as adults, they’re fair game. It’s not perfect, it doesn’t work for everyone, but it’s there nonetheless.

    Still, i’ll have to dwell a little more on this. It’s not a black and white situation i’ll grant you that.


  19. Shameful

    No i don’t believe in women being eternal children. The age of consent is not perfect, but it’s the best we got to protect a majority even if some are capable of making choices under that age.

    I can drive better than 98% of the idiots i share the road with. I was built for the autobahn. Does my ability justify raising the speed limit of every street by 30 km/h and every 400 series highway by 50 km/h? No. So i have to make due with the silly speed limit as it stands as it protects the majority from their own piss poor driving from killing themselves (and possibly me as well). It sucks that i’ll get fined for weaving in and out of lanes at almost double the limit. I have to accept the law is there to keep stupid people from hurting/killing themselves by attempting higher speeds they cannot negotiate.

    Sorry, that’s the only analogy i got. I’m tired.

    But ya, it’s not for me to say if/when women wise up and stop chasing cads. Some learn quickly, some don’t learn at all, and some hamsturbate themselves into thinking that’s what they actually want out of life. Every woman is unique. But like i said to LongLost.. i’ll do my utmost best to teach them while under my charge. Once the law says they’re adults, they’re stuck with the responsibility of dealing with all consequences (agency) of their choices as adults (ie. when the law says i can legally kick them out).. they’re fair game for any guy. You hope they make the right choices, but it’s all on them at that point.


  20. Think that once you reach an age of legal adulthood (whatever that may be for a particular state/country) you as a man or woman are now seen as being old enough to make decisions that affect your own life. You decide how to go about getting a job, whether you’ll go to college/trade school, what to eat every night, where to live…and yes, who you want to sleep with. Of course, many (not all) kids start fooling around with sex before they reach this age of consent, but as it’s been pointed out there is a world of difference between two 15 year olds having sex VS a 40 year old and a 17 year old having sex. One is a fairly equal situation…the other has a undeniable power/life experience discrepancy. I’m not saying that an honest, real, caring relationship could never happen between the latter example. Harold and Maud is a classic book for a reason. I’m just saying it is probably not going to happen, and people will end up confused and hurt.

    Of course, if we as a society taught our young to not give in to peer pressure, and that it is okay to remain a virgin until you’re more comfortable with your body, this wouldn’t be an issue. I personally wasn’t emotionally ready for sex til I was 22 and met a partner who accepted my brokenness. On the other hand, my best friend in high school shared his virginity with his girlfriend when they were 17. Everyone is different, everyone has unique needs…This should be recognized and respected regardless of age.


  21. @M3

    What you seem to be saying (correct me if I’m wrong) is that we live in a dysfunctional culture, where teens don’t learn to be responsible, and at age 16 they are completely unprepared for dealing with their hypergamy (but they are not inherently damageable by sex with adults). So lets agree with that culture and infantilize them some more, because the damage is done?.. M3, I don’t know all the answers, but it seems more correct to me to try to look for other solutions, instead of getting complacent with how things are just because it’s a sure thing.

    Wilson has a point – a teen can be exploited by people of the same age. Why do you focus on older men, and not cockblock douchey males of all ages? Are older men who are interested in teens automatically only there for casual sex and manipulating her into things (unlike a teen boy, who just wants commitment)? Why is he automatically a bad guy simply because he knows more about sex and relationships? He could be way less harmful for all you know, precisely because he is knowledgeable.

    Also, this idea that sex between people with unequal power equals exploitation, or the idea that sex between people of different smarts is exploitation of the dumber one. It doesn’t follow at all if you look closer. Should it be illegal to have sex with people way dumber than you? Much less powerful than you?

    “If you drive over 50km/h, they will impound your car, suspend your licence and make you spend X days in jail while waiting to post bail.”
    Is it true? That’s not what I’ve heard. http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/569299-speeding-how-fast-before-its-jail-time/ You can go to jail, but you have to REALLY speed and REALLY endager everyone’s lives to go to jail:

    “ I was running around 207 in a 65 on a modified Buell when I was caught. I figured I could outrun the cops, so I kept going. THey had a roadblock setup where I was going due to it being jan 1st, so i ended up getting myself caught. I spent 2 weeks in jail, lost my license for a year, and had to pay a 2500$ fine. Ive not rode a bike since ”

    So endangering people’s lives cost him a year of no license, and 2 weeks in jail, but endangering a teen sexually would put him on the sex offender list forever, and probably a longer sentence. While you didn’t say anything about jail, you did express a violent fantasy about such a man. Do you have the same feelings about someone putting this girl in danger by speeding? To be precise, do you think a woman’s vagina is more worth than her life?

    I’m not saying you must not cockblock unfit males from your daughters, if you have them. I’m only arguing against having your moral imposed on everyone as a law to such an extent that harming a woman’s vagina is worse than killing her. It’s neither fair nor good for anyone.

    It’s ironic you bring up Romeo and Juliet. That’s pretty much a story about stupid parents driving their teens to suicide. Because they decided that they are unfit for each other due to some superficial, arbitrary criteria like their family name (could have also picked age).

    Also, you sent me similar links before. The one before said that our rational thinking and decision making parts of the brain don’t fully mature until 25. An 18 year old is as far from that, as an 11 year old is from an 18 year old. Why stop at 18?


  22. @Tarnished

    “This doesn’t happen nearly as much as people think it does, and I’ve yet to meet a girl (or boy, for that matter) who has done half the things you use in your “example”.”

    And I don’t think “old man abusing teens by having consensual sex with them” happens as much as people think is does. I haven’t met anyone with this problem either (unless it was a straightforward rape). But I have met many people who lost their virginity to adults when they were teens. It didn’t harm them.


  23. M3

    I don’t have any skin in the game, but having been in a couple of recent mini relationships with women 18-22 (i’m early 30s) its hardly one sided, it’s not as if my game trumps their natural assets. But i to was an incel, and didnt get any sort of game till late 20s. However i know a guy who had a notch count of 30 before he was 18. Who would be the bigger predator him then or me now? It’s quite arbitrary. Now i have 0 issue with men guarding the virtue of women they care about, but as we live in modern Gomorrah it hardly seems normal. And maybe i’m jaded but i spent a lifetime being lied to and conned about the SMP, so i dont have a lot of sympathy for those who start the game with pocket aces, and the fact that this particular occurrence is itself quite rare. Not a lot of jacked 40 something guys who can fly in those circles and compete with HS jock game.


  24. Believe me Shameful, i sympathize. Hell, i can empathize.You bring up some solid points, indisputable actually. It’s late, im about to crash, but i’ll touch back on it in the morning. I’ll leave it at this, while i too really stopped trying to rescue or save damaged women of Gomorrah, try and remember that as you (and i) were lied to about the SMP… we weren’t the only ones.


  25. “there is a world of difference between two 15 year olds having sex VS a 40 year old and a 17 year old having sex. One is a fairly equal situation…the other has a undeniable power/life experience discrepancy”

    And that discrepancy often is precisely what motivates the 17-year-old to embrace it. Blame it on “daddy issues” or whatever you wish, but the younger chick getting turned on by fucking the older man DOES NOT WANT a fairly equal situation.

    I would definitely try and shield and defend my daughter from such an arrangement, but not because she would be an innocent in the situation. I would be protecting her from herself as much as I would be protecting her from him.


  26. @LongLostFriend

    “And that discrepancy often is precisely what motivates the 17-year-old to embrace it. Blame it on “daddy issues” or whatever you wish, but the younger chick getting turned on by fucking the older man DOES NOT WANT a fairly equal situation.”

    I admit that I’m naive when it comes to typical teenage lust/desires, so could you describe the type of situation you feel she (or he…boys get sexed up by older women too) wants, if it’s not an equal one?


  27. Also, you sent me similar links before. The one before said that our rational thinking and decision making parts of the brain don’t fully mature until 25. An 18 year old is as far from that, as an 11 year old is from an 18 year old. Why stop at 18?

    As far as I know, the maturation process of the brain is gradual and its synaptic pruning part never stops completely, at some point becoming balanced with adult neurogenesis and synaptogenesis. Here is a fairly recent example article touching the issue – A role for synaptic plasticity in the adolescent development of executive function

    Again, it’s debatable where to draw the line on this continuum, taking personal variation into account.


  28. As a side note, LTD (long term depression) is a neurophysiological term only coincidentally sharing the part of its name with depression as a psychological condition. These two terms have nothing in common beyond the word itself, but don’t take my word on it. Better to consult the Wikipedia instead.


  29. Who, except someone terminally starved sexually, would risk a serious involvement with an eternal brat like her? Fast forward 10, or better 20 years in the future. How would be living with her like? *shudder*


  30. […] goes right back to my last post on ‘Worth‘ where i […]


  31. M3

    Like i said to me it’s academic. I’m a computer guy so not like i run in circles where pre 18 year olds are in my view. About my only encounter with that was first starting out and running cold approaches at a local mall, and realizing my age gauge was iffy.

    I more dont understand the desire to protect a class that is shielded from their bad decisions as much as a society would allow. It’s not needed and not wanted by them. On the other hand reaching out to the lowly omegas, need every piece of help they can get to carve out a little piece of happyness on this rock. And you have certainly done that with your incel post. This was really me more asking you about your own motivations, because they sounded on the white knight side. Which after what you have been through stunned me.


  32. “I got this young chick, she so immature
    She like, “Why you don’t buy me Reeboks no more?”
    Like to show out in public, throw tantrums on the floor
    Gotta toss a couple dollars, just to shut up her holla”

    – “Girls, Girls, Girls” – Jay-Z

    I’m at an age where I can still get aroused by the sight of a young beautiful woman. Then she opens her mouth, and my erection dwindles. Kate Upton falls into this category. That is not to say I value physical beauty less, but it must be part of a package. The most intense love I would feel for women were for those that were not knock-outs, but who became attractive to me over time.


  33. @Ted

    “That is not to say I value physical beauty less, but it must be part of a package. The most intense love I would feel for women were for those that were not knock-outs, but who became attractive to me over time.”

    Ha, you sound like me. I would have no clue how to go about physically “loving” someone I don’t know/care about on some level.

    As I’ve said before, my lover is not what springs to mind when people talk about “incredibly sexy” men…or at least he looks nothing like a Chippendale stripper. He’s overweight, 15 years older than me, has no significant muscle tone, and has the dorkiest smile imaginable. But he’s kind, gentle, not afraid to show his feelings, funny, confident in himself and his abilities, and willing to try anything in the sack. He was the first man I’d ever met who *didn’t* try to push me into being physical…and when I was finally ready to learn touching again, he let me be in full control of what we did. To others, he may be a moderately attractive older nerd, but to me he is an Adonis, a pinnacle of male sexuality.

    I sometimes wonder if those of us (both men and women) who’ve been pushed around, hurt, or used by callous people are more likely to want personality over body? From conversations I’ve had with others online, I’m beginning to think this is so.

    By the way, Ted, how are you doing? Hope life is treating you well for the most part.


  34. […] “worth” of a man, […]


  35. Once flatted (shared an apartment) with a guy whose motto was “if it bleeds, it breeds”. I was glad to get the hell away from him.

    After I left he got caught with a 14yo whore who started in the biz at 12yo. There were a lot of them around in the early-nineties, before prostitution was legalised in New Zealand.

    Why’d they do it? The money was damn good at the time, $200+ an hour – more if you wanted unprotected or anal. I heard that Asians were the worst, they always wanted unprotected.

    Gives me an idea for a post about how people no longer value their sexuality. Men and women both.


  36. Hey! Two thumbs up on tackling an issue that really annoys me in the gender debate, I totally agree that there can be a real double standard about what it’s OK for men and women to be attracted to. There does seem to be an idea that men should be able to rationally evaluate a woman’s overall worth and be attracted to her based on that, but women are allowed to be (or not be) attracted to whoever they want. Obviously it cuts both ways, but I’d say it’s definitely a scenario that’s more unfair to men as a rule. Personally I think the whole “The heart wants what the heart wants” rule is the only one that can really apply when it comes to choosing long term partners (for one-offs it tends to be more “The heart wants what the tequila wants” in my experience) If you just don’t love someone, or you’re not attracted to them, then that’s it – you can’t change it with any amount of rational thought. Plus you can’t really expect someone to come up to you at a bar and say “Hey, I was just looking at you and I couldn’t help noticing you have a really high IQ and you’re probably really kind to animals.” You can’t see a person’s character just by looking at them, so being attracted to someone based solely on looks when you’ve never spoken to them does not make you shallow.

    That said, I would like to offer a possible explanation for why this double-standard has evolved and why some women can be quite antagonistic about it. Traditional gender roles have long stipulated that a woman’s primary value lies in her physical attractiveness (and sometimes fertility). Fortunately (in my opinion) traditional gender roles are slowly breaking down, and we’re coming to understand that the overall worth of people of any gender lies in a variety of factors, not just in their appearance, wealth, confidence etc. But old habits die hard, and the concept that a woman’s value lies in her attractiveness is difficult to shake off. So to a lot of women it may sound like if someone doesn’t find them attractive, they’re saying that she has no value at all. Obviously in most cases they’re not saying that at all, but the equation of ‘beauty = worth’ has been drummed into us for so long that it can be difficult not to react instinctively with hurt and outrage.

    It seems like a way to help change this trend, and improve things for men and women, will be to encourage the view that a person’s overall worth and their worth to people of the opposite sex are two different things. Yes, being attractive to others is important, but the world is hardly at risk of being underpopulated so there’s not exactly a race to breed. I think helping people realise that just because someone doesn’t want to bang you that doesn’t mean you’re not good at your job, or not kind to other people, or not contributing to society, or doing any of the other things that make up someone’s overall value as a human being. Our culture places a lot of emphasis on sex and sexuality, so it’s understandable that some people think that their sexual worth to others constitutes their overall worth as a person. It’s a stupid misconception that harms both men and women, and it’s something that seriously needs tackling if we’re going to end ridiculous double-standards like these.


  37. @ paradox

    “Traditional gender roles have long stipulated that a woman’s primary value lies in her physical attractiveness (and sometimes fertility).”
    Not traditional. Biology. This is indisputable. A woman’s primary value AS A MATE rests on her fertility and physical features. This value obviously has zero connection to her secondary value as a COMPANION but it is also irrelevant. Sexual attraction must occur and a desire to mate is the primary biological impetus of our species. Whereas the male has an extremely small criteria to seek out primary value, a female has an obscenely large list of criteria, evolved precisely because females carry children. They need provisioning, protection, care, a father figure to raise their kids to ensure better chances of survival down the road. This is not a double standard, it is simply how human biology operates.

    “Fortunately (in my opinion) traditional gender roles are slowly breaking down, and we’re coming to understand that the overall worth of people of any gender lies in a variety of factors, not just in their appearance, wealth, confidence etc”
    This is not gender roles breaking down. WHat you are describing is ‘filtering’. Sexual attraction is still the heart of it, but mating does not occur solely based upon acting on instinct. The variety of factors you speak of are what i outlined above for women. Recognizing the bad boy might not care about being a father, won’t provide support, will leave you for a younger woman etc.. same for men, recognizing the hottie is almost certainly a gold digger, will cheat on you or worse, have a child with another man and trick you to raise it, etc. None of this is breaking down sexual attraction, the dick needs to be hard and the vagina needs to become wet with arousal, else no attraction. Everything else falls into traits one wants in a companion and not a slut/cad.

    ” that the overall worth of people of any gender lies in a variety of factors”
    Agreed, i’ve known many great and awesome people in my life who were ignored by women, myself included. Biology does not have time to waste on the sexually unattractive. There are many people, both male/female who’s overall worth is much greater overall than the sexually successful players and whores. This comes as little comfort to those who lose out in the mating game due to feminism and the sexual liberation movement of socially validated promiscuity where overall worth takes a back seat to the civil society destructive force of unleashed hypergamy.

    “But old habits die hard, and the concept that a woman’s value lies in her attractiveness is difficult to shake off”
    This is not something you can deprogram out of us with social justice sloganeering im sorry to tell you, you cannot deprogram biology. Women do not mate with the homeless. They do not mate with unproductive men (unless they show other advantageous evo traits like extreme aggression). They do not mate with unfunny men. They do not mate with lower class men when they are capable of mating with upper class men. They want the best. And so does every other woman. So all women KNOW they must compete among themselves for the best (and dwindling supply – LINK) of mates. And this leads back to the primary value, the primary reason. A woman’s youth, beauty and vitality are her first and best opportunity to win that race, because other women are after the same guy. It’s not an old habit. It is design.

    ” So to a lot of women it may sound like if someone doesn’t find them attractive, they’re saying that she has no value at all.”
    You know what i’m going to say now right? Flip the coin…
    “So to a lot of women it may sound like if someone doesn’t find them attractive, they’re saying that she has no value at all.” <– This is the lament of EVERY Beta, AFC (average frustrated chump), NiceGuy™ of OKCupid, Incel man on the internet… women do not entertain relationships with them because they are unattractive, all their secondary traits have NO value since sexual desire is missing. And believe me because i’ve been keeping score.. FEMINISM DOES NOT FUCKING CARE ABOUT THESE MEN. It only mocks them. It tells them nothing about how to be attractive, it simply demands that men ‘Just Get It’ which is far harder for men than it is for women since we tell you straight up from the horses mouth “Don’t be a bitch, Don’t be obese”.

    “I think helping people realise that just because someone doesn’t want to bang you that doesn’t mean you’re not good at your job, or not kind to other people, or not contributing to society, or doing any of the other things that make up someone’s overall value as a human being.”
    Sounds noble and Utopian but let me clue you in here on something. We are not a species of androgynous robots as much as feminists would like it to be, as that is their final endgame. We seek out the opposite sex because our biology and our instincts tell us to. We crave to find the ying to our yang and we yearn for companionship that transcends mere friendship. We seek out SEXUAL relationships because we were built and designed to do just that. Just because we are civilized, technological and overpopulated does not override the instinct within us to share in a sexual relationship with a member of the opposite sex. You cannot seriously believe (or maybe you do great maker help us) that we as a species could just ignore our sexual impulses, link our hands together and sing kumbiya m’lord reveling in each others overall worth and value as a human being. As long as people are having sex, those without will want what the haves have. Our culture places a lot of emphasis on sex, but to the healthy male, that’s a no brainer built into us anyways. And women will always instinctively desire to have children. Women will always ovulate. Biology will always be. And the mating game will continue, no matter how much feminist mumbo jumbo yarn one attempts to spin.

    “if we’re going to end ridiculous double-standards like these.”
    Biology isn’t a double standard. Read a book. One that doesn’t come from wymins studies is a good start. You can start with this guy, David Buss.


  38. Hey! Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I feel like I should clarify a couple of things. First up, I wasn’t advocating at all that we should try to “reprogram” our sexual desires or anything like that. I agree that the urge to mate is biological, and the qualities we look for in a mate are very much shaped by our evolution. I was just saying that since we as a species are capable of rational thought, it’s possible for us to realise that our worth AS A MATE is not equivalent to our worth AS A PERSON OVERALL. I in no way to desire to turn the world in some kind of feminist utopia in which nobody gives in to biological urges and does everything based on reason. As you said, we’re not androgynous robots. I don’t think that encouraging people to realise that they have worth based on their ability to attract a mate, AND due to a range of other factors which have nothing to do with sex, means trying to overturn or ignore biological urges at all.

    Also, the ‘double-standard’ I talked about was the idea that men have to be able to ignore their biological desires and rationally value a woman as a mate based on their overall worth regardless of how attractive they find her, but women do not have to do the same. I dunno if you consider that ‘biology’ but that wouldn’t seem consistent with your post, so I thought maybe I was talking about something else.

    Also when you say that “sexual attraction is still at the heart of it”, what precisely do you mean? Cause from what you said I kinda got the impression that you thought I was saying that gender roles breaking down is enabling us to choose mates based on things other than biological urges, but I wasn’t actually saying that. What I meant was that we’re realising that the things we traditionally value about other people AS MATES are not necessarily the things that make them valuable in other aspects of life. For instance, a woman not being beautiful doesn’t mean she can’t be good at a job, and a man not being financially well-off doesn’t mean he can’t improve society through activism or charity work. I know that these things don’t make people more attractive as mates, but it does give them a value as contributors to the world outside of their ability to reproduce. I’m quite sure you knew this already and I’m not trying to be patronising, I just wanted to make sure you understood where I was coming from.

    And I totally take your point about “flipping the coin” and men being told/feeling like they have no value if they’re not attractive to women. Again, I just want to make it absolutely clear that I wasn’t disputing the idea that a woman’s (or man’s) value AS A MATE lies in their attractiveness, merely that their value as a person does not lie solely in their value as a mate. The “old habit” I spoke of was the idea that a person’s worth overall is totally dependent on their ability to attract a mate (which would foster the idea that a woman’s overall worth is totally dependent on her beauty). I completely agree that WHAT we are attracted to is biology and not habit, and I’ve neither the desire nor the power to change biology.

    I’d also just like to point out that regarding my discussion of the idea that if you’re not attracted to a woman you’re saying she has no value, that that’s not actually my personal opinion. All I was trying to do was put forward a possible explanation for why some women might jump so quickly to a position of outrage. I don’t think that excuses bad behaviour or hypocrisy, but I also think that trying to understand the viewpoints of people that dislike or disagree with one’s own views is really important. I realise that you probably think that feminism is responsible for behaviour like that, and perhaps it is in part. But I doubt that it’s the only significant factor since not all people who identify as feminists perpetuate the double-standard we’ve been discussing, so maybe having a look at other potential factors is also worthwhile. Thanks again for replying so quickly!


  39. Heh, you are on a roll, M3.

    Paradoxy, how would you like to have your worth as a human being manifested to you by other people? It’s built-in into a civil society already as the equality before the law, as imperfect as it is.


  40. i was a gamma too. now i’m apparently a sigma. i try not to think about the past because i see all the mistakes i made.



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