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Date Down

January 29, 2013

Super quick post.

There’s a current meme developing in the comment section on both The Rational Male and The Private Man where the female commenters are basically going to this argument:

If you want a relationship, stop shooting for the stars and stop punching above your weight. Date down, start choosing plump 4’s and 5’s.

Now most of the male commenters like Deti and FuriousFerret have done amazing counter arguments but i would simply like to say this.

If you’re saying all my problems are because i’m shooting too high and i should date down.. while i’m at my physical best, absolute peak, tip top, and getting better..

..why aren’t women ‘dating down’ and choosing betas/deltas/gammas/omega shlubs at the height of their power when they’re young?

68 comments

  1. Although the advice can be reasonable (be realistic in effect), you don’t actually expect today entitlement princess to be introspective enough to see the hypocrisy of this do you?


  2. Hmm.. dating down does solve a few issues, but it can create new ones, if you’re not careful.


  3. I shouldnt have to shoot below my weight class in order to get commitment.

    One part of their argument they dont even seem to notice is how self-incriminating it is. If that argument were true, that would mean most women above that rating (and the higher they are, the worse they are) dont want to commit and have high N. SoI guess girls posting this are either

    a. The plump 4’s and 5’s

    b. The sluts.


  4. No idea.
    Then again, I have a lot of difficulty with rating people based on a scale of 1-10. Men that are supposedly “hot” I tend to not find attractive, whereas the slightly pudgy/quirky/older guy is very appealing to me. A lot of it has to do with their smile, and how kind the eyes look.

    As dear Vicomte would say, “Outliers are hard to account for”. :P


  5. I agree that a man should “punch down” if he is on a losing streak. A little nooky does wonders for a man’s self-confidence. It’s like looking for a job–it is easier to find a better job whilst one is employed than unemployed. And we talk all the time about entitled princesses, but what about men who have the attitude that they are “entitled” to 9s and 10s. If you ain’t pulling 9s and 10s then there is a good chance that you ain’t in their league. Men are not entitled to anything. You have to earn it. And you have to find your place in the sexual market place. You can’t change the way things are.

    Hell, M3, you look like a stud. If I swung that way, I’d date you. But for all I know you might have some fatal flaws in person. Bad breath, B.O., a terrible personality, a bad conversationalist, I don’t know, it could be anything. But it must be something if you didn’t get laid for 10 plus years. I can’t fathom being on that long of a dry spell.

    But if anybody came to me for advice during such a dry period I would counsel brutal honesty with themselves. And I would also advise them to set their sights a little lower TEMPORARILY in order to get laid. No, not fat pigs, never ever ever. But there are lots of women that are doable, especially in the dark or after copious amounts of alcohol, if you swallow your pride and accept reality. Reality is, if you ain’t getting laid, you are doing something wrong. You either have your sights set too high, you lack game, or you incorrectly judge your own SMP value.

    This isn’t about women, and their entitlement mentality. You can’t change women. You just have to learn to deal with them.


  6. Where are these men holding out for nines and tens?

    I have not known these men.

    I suspect they may be figments.

    Or perhaps elves.


  7. The men were told to date average women , not plumpi 4’s and fives or sluts.. Most of the men in the sphere are not top tier, they’re average or lower otherwise they wouldn’t be seeking advice. The problem is that women and MEN don’t know their smp or whether they are alpha, beta or omega. This is especially true of guys who self describe as beta.

    Most married types settle into a rut where they are neither bringing the sexy alpha or the nurturing beta. So…greater omega? I could imagine that a decade of that would lead to frivilous divorce. The thing is, the guy comes into the sphere and figures it was because he was too beta. Wrong. Unless he was alpha going in, and after a few years settled into beta, the average beta will settle into omega.

    Women who date down are going to have a harder time loving the man because love and respect are very intertwined. Submissiveness is torturous for a woman who doesn’t respect her man.

    Men are visual, and a woman who settles down, loses her looks and doesn’t nurture is the female equivallent of the greater omega. Like the the male version, she wont see her self that way.

    Men and women should date within their smp, with a level on either side for leeway. Yes, there are women who over estimate their value. They will have cats. Yes, there are men who overestimate their value They will go their own way.

    [M3: your logic is sound, tho culturally it is a crime of Hitler proportions to leave your wife because she got fat/aged. Women are encouraged to ditch their loser husbands the moment they drop alpha rank, lose the tingle and pick up with Rolando the International Banker. SMP rank is crazy for both sexes, but women by a majority get instant ego validation through social media whoring. Men have no such outlet. Men base their rank mostly on traditional metrics.. which obviously don’t apply today]


  8. Listen to the rabbit tree. It is wise in the ways of such things.

    hehe

    John. I faced my 12 years. I introspected. I’ve laid it all out to bear (for the world to see might i add). I’ve recognized where i went wrong. I owned my mistakes. I admitted that it was my actions, my beta actions that kept me incel, and my beta actions that pooched my marriage. It was a bitter fucking pill, but i did it.

    I don’t see women doing the same soul churning i did to get where i am now.

    I stopped accepting the idea of ‘being nice’.
    I stopped accepting people should be attracted to me for whats on the inside.
    I picked up p90x and ran with it.
    I took everything the sphere told me to heart, took brutal verbal beatings from Yohami et all about masculine nature
    I absorbed every last detail from Rollo about hypergamy and how it doesn’t care
    I corrected my unattractive way of acting, behaving, socializing
    I changed my damn posture, my mannerisms, the way i walk, the way i speak
    I think before i speak
    I’ve changed my body
    I’ve learned how to interact, flirt, pick up redflags, calibrate
    and on and on and on..

    And most guys in the sphere are doing this too, every guy in here is on his own journey, but mostly a journey about self improvement in one way or the other.

    I DON’T SEE WOMEN LOOKING INWARD LIKE THIS
    with the exception of a few redpill ready women, a majority consider their arrogant princess attitudes status quo and that all the work that we men do to change ourselves and fit within the feminine imperative is simply TO BE EXPECTED as a matter of course if we are to be so lucky to wife’m up.

    Yeah, a lot of guys punch high ill grant you that. But study after study, dating coach after dating coach have born out time and again that it’s women who have super unreal expectations they feel entitled to simply because they are the vagina, they are the prize.

    The imperative commands it. No introspection or change required.

    Man up!


  9. And oh..

    my breath smells like the farts of a unicorn after it ate hay made of peppermint.

    Imma gonna try and get my next post up tonight. It’ll show you where ‘punching down’ leads.. at least here in Toronto.

    Stay tuned.


  10. On ye thirde daye of ye eleventhe monthe, thou wilst cast downe ye bloode of one what is pure and innocente of evile.

    Thou wilst sing ye songes of mysterie amonge ye blake oakes of ye Mountaine.

    Thou wilst envoke ye unholye name of YOG-SOGGOTH.

    And beneathe ye shadowe of ye RABBITE TREE, thous wilst finde thy wisdome.


  11. I have this incredible urge to lob a holy hand grenade at that tree…


  12. I’m thinking that because of the “men chase, women choose” dynamic, that it’s generally easier for women to get men than it is for men to get with women, so maybe most women can get away with snagging a guy she wants, even if that guy may be more attractive than she is.

    Also, (and I know I’m going to catch hell for this) I made the observation quite a bit ago that a lot of men around the ‘sphere may have higher expectations than they should, imo. Certain men around these blogs are 4s and 5s shooting for 8s and 9s, no wonder why they are obsessed with trying to not get friend zoned.


  13. M3, you are by far the best looking guy based on pics posted. You shouldn’t have to date down.

    ***starts to turn 17 shades of red… regains composure, remains aloof***
    [M3: Why thanks luv. That’s nicest thing anybody has said about me since lunch time] ;)


  14. @Ashley

    We can all agree many expectations are skewed. Problem is, how to solve the root issue. I consider it very much like China’s sex-ratio problem developing with real bodies. 30-40 million more men than women. That’s trouble.

    What we have in North America is similar if you consider the studies of male/female attractiveness to be accurate. That a majority of women find only a minority of men attractive. In an era where assortive mating based on traditional gender roles is dead, and women are independant and free to choose (or fight, or mate poach) top tier men amongst themselves… it leaves a majority of men unable to procure any women, even at their own rank. Punching above their weight is almost irrelevant because the women who would be their equal on the sex rank scale are all shooting WAY above their weight.

    Men chase.. the lower ranks chase. They provide validation, ego, supplication and platonic support. This feeds the womens ego’s to become the defacto chasers of the top tier men who don’t chase, but simply allow the women to enter into a civil war over them, or agree to look the other way as they ‘share’ him in a harem or don’t ask/don’t tell what his partner count is.

    For the most part, guys would be happy with their equivalent rank. Problem is, it usually isn’t there waiting for them. The girls of equal rank are holding out for wolfboy from Twilight.


  15. And ye bloode shalle rise uppe inne ye soile at ye rootes of ye RABBITE TREE, and ye wordes wille forme upone ye blackenede rootes, and ye wordes wille reade as suche:

    M3 tries too hard with his photos.

    And ye wordes wille faede as theye have risene, and theye wille be wisdome.


  16. Well if they are 4 and 5s because they are plump, then they should get into a gym and lift weights, plus paleo and juicing for 4-6 months and we’re done. A hell of a lot easier than the man part of the equation.

    I would wager that 70 percent of women between 18-30 can be attractive cute, high 6s low 7s if they don’t get fat/dress and look feminine. 80-90 percent if they are Eastern European. Fucking crazy shite, just ruining themselves like.


  17. “M3 tries too hard with his photos.”

    Ooooooh that waskuhwee twee. It’s Vicomte season!


  18. Date down? Fuck that, M3. You’re a star and you know it. Fuck ‘em.

    And I yelled SNAAAAAP! in the office at your last line and almost snorted hot tea as the line really sunk in. Nobody’s asking women to “date down” or “lower themselves”, why should men?

    and you also hit the nail on the head when it comes to the topic of “soul searching” — I’m going through that now… it sucks. Big time. And I agree with you that most women don’t dig that deep. They let their friends “you go girl” them to death, creating a neverending loop that leads to more bad behavior.

    Blah to all of it. ~Lianne


  19. I date women. I always date down. Wheeeeeeeeeeeee!


  20. “The men were told to date average women , not plumpi 4′s and fives or sluts..”

    Plump 4’s and 5’s ARE the average in the States. Unless you live in Manhattan or a few other places, THAT is exactly what the average woman is like…

    You think the average woman stateside is a 7, feminine, wears high heels, and is feminine?


  21. Here’s my issue with this discussion: I am WELL aware no one is entitled to anything. However, I find that almost every (I consider) good looking woman I’ve had sex with never wants commitment. Most women I had even had (miraculously) open discussion with about commitment seem to think that they should not commit at such a young age and want to “experiment.”

    It seems to be the trend amongst girls my age to be used up until they are older and then expect commitment to simply come to them.

    Granted some girls want to commit but those are generally the not so appealing 4’s and 5’s. And as M3 has said, it isn’t really love and commitment if you are simply doing so out of lack of options, which it seems to me many 4’s and 5’s are commiting for just that reason; lack of options.

    My point is (and I hate to generalize) but in my experience most girls above 5 dont want commitment regardless of the guys “rating.”

    Maybe I’m just a jaded womanizing mysoginist.


  22. Gold Star.


  23. @ Emma

    “Hmm.. dating down does solve a few issues, but it can create new ones, if you’re not careful.”

    I had a friend back in the day who did great with the ladies — handsome, charismatic, a college baseball player. The type of guy we call “alpha” in the ‘sphere. He had strange tastes in women though– he might pull a hotter girl than I could ever hope to get, but then he’d turn around and pull a girl who I wouldn’t fuck if my life depended on it.

    He got lots of action, obviously, but he also got stalked a lot by some of the women he’d fucked.


  24. This is my credo, I’m going to start living my life based on this.

    Now I must go expand my trophy case after signing up for that childrens basketball tournament.


  25. Low SMV women are the worst to date, being ugly dents ones self esteem and these chicks purposefully bat outside their league to validate their self perception.

    I have a cluster of friends in that range and you wouldn’t believe the types of guys they’re hanging out for, I’ve tried to hook them up with guys in their own league to no avail.


  26. the best option is just to not date at all.


  27. It might be possible to ease into a 4 if you are acquaintances or friends, but to approach one…that’s pretty rough. The girl that is available because she isn’t getting attention has probably dropped out of the market anyway, and is either at home cuddling her cats or hospitalized.


  28. @Wilson

    I thought you were going to say is possible to ease into a 4 by using a shoe-horn, but I’ll accept your given answer nonetheless.

    Vicomte will be around later to continue the nights entertainment.


  29. @Vicomte

    I hope to one day be deemed worthy of your great wisdom, oh conifer of the lagomorphs!


  30. Ye RABBITE TREE shalle speake no songes this eve, for ye RABBITE TREE shalle attende his wisdome upon ye heraeticale witche whatte longes for his favoure.

    For anye thatte seeke ye wisdome of ye RABBITE TREE shalle knowe his wayes, and they shalle nibbleth of his barke, and feedeth of his sappe, and they shalle knowe his wisdome.


  31. “why aren’t women ‘dating down’ and choosing betas/deltas/gammas/omega shlubs at the height of their power when they’re young?”

    Because that’s not how relationship dynamics work. Men and women want different things. A woman wants a man of higher status; a man wants a woman who meets a threshold of various traits (looks and affability, e.g.). A woman who is with a higher status man will be easier to deal with, and a man who wants a girl that is easier to deal with will need to “date down.” Heartiste basically covered this a couple of years ago and said that maximum relationship happiness occurs when the man’s status is half a point higher than his woman’s status.

    Also, the law of averages would suggest that most men are in the middle value range of the SMP, which means that the advice for men to date 4s and 5s is correct on average. Guys who are 6s have no business with women who are 9s, and vice versa.


  32. Oh, thank you great Rabbit Tree! Truly, your power doth rival that of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (and his noodly appendages)!

    All sing the praises of this wondrous bi-kingdom deity!


  33. This one girl told my friend he should leave the country if he wants to get laid. No man should have to leave the country if he wants pussy. That is ridiculous.


  34. Strange game. The only way to win is not to play.

    I think I’ll get a dog.


  35. Living single life as a man is a 9/10 life.

    Getting married to the right woman makes it a 10/10.

    Dating down or getting married/divorced to a slut makes it 3/10 at best.

    No thanks on lowering my expectations.


  36. It´s almost as if “lesser” women (6 and below), despised you for dating them if you´re above them on the dating scale. Sometimes the vibe I got was “don´t make me lose my time, you´re playing games with me”, or “I´d rather go full 8 or up than 7″. (disclaimer,
    I´m a 7 with a modicum of game).
    In my experience, dating well bellow you is a waste of time if you can stomach it, because girls won´t thank you for that, on the contrary.
    Women are funny that way.


  37. @taterearl

    I don’t know…I’d say that living the single life is a 10/10. Honestly, I put mine at a 9/10 right now…and that’s only because of my college/credit card debt. When I’m debt free in two years, I’d definitely say 10/10.

    No matter how understanding or open your mate is, they will most likely want to have children which ties you down a lot. Vacations are hard to plan, the sex drops off, you need to buy more clothes, food, etc. If you’re unlike my parents, you may put even more money towards a college fund. Then there’s the doctor visits, the parent teacher meetings, the homework, the plethora of diseases encountered at school, the chaperoning of field trips…kids are great, but expensive!

    Even if you meet a lovely mate who doesn’t want children, you are still given rules to follow. First you miss your friend’s bachelor party, then you have to give up your poker/bowling/gaming night, next your anniversary lands on the date of your paintball tournament or fishing weekend. You have to call if you’re coming home late (and will probably still get in trouble). Your money is not your own anymore, and I even have some friends whose wives notice if even $30 is missing from the paycheck…so much for putting money away for something YOU want.

    No thanks. Some people might say that single life is half of what it could be…I say it’s freedom of the best kind. Come home when you want, travel when you desire, work late for extra money/promotions, cook whatever you feel like eating, play videogames during your free time, game with your friends or hang out at the movies when you can get together. When you’re single, your schedule is FAR more open!


  38. @ Anna

    Single life is great no doubt, for all the freedom it grants. Having said that:

    1. You have a lover with zero obligation or responsibility to him. If you were single and unable to procure sex, you’re tune would change. In a world still dominated by femcentric rules of coupling into relationships for sex, the cards are stacked against “most” men from living the casual sex, single lifestyle.

    2. Your relationship is the best fluke imaginable in terms of setup and risk/reward. There’s no preggo or STD worries, and not societal commitment pressure.

    3. You’re living the nihilist dream. Your arrangement does not work well for society on a macro scale. Our species, our civilization dies (which is what we’re slowly witnessing being played out) in a generation or two if there is no incentive for men and women to come together, bond and raise normal, well adjusted offspring.

    Living single is great, and for me i’m with Earl, 9/10. But those 3 years i had with my wife before i married her and she went rabid on my beta ass were priceless and a full 10 out of 10. If i could go back in time and run Athol’s MAP on her, i would.


  39. Completely agree and understand, M3. I’m hardly saying that people shouldn’t get married and have children, but I hardly think there is any danger of THAT happening. And yes, I realize that I 100% utterly lucked out in my current relationship…to me, it’s about as close to perfect as I could ever hope.

    I let him know that quite often! :)

    But I’ve seen so many relationships/marriages fail, usually for the most inane of reasons…one person always gives, and the other always takes. Of me and my 8 best friends growing up, ONE of us had parents that were still together. That was by frickin’ 6th grade! My own father has gotten married to three different women…and my mother to two men. Hardly any good role models there. :/

    Maybe it is purely due to what I saw of relationships when I was younger. Maybe it’s because two of my friends have gotten divorced this past year. Or maybe it’s just the culture we live in now, messing up my perceptions. But I truly don’t see any reason for me to get married…on some level, that does make me a bit sad. On another level, I think it just helps me to accept reality.

    M3, of the years you were happy with your ex, WHY were you happy? And what changed?


  40. John Doe says:

    “Hell, M3, you look like a stud. If I swung that way, I’d date you. But for all I know you might have some fatal flaws in person. Bad breath, B.O., a terrible personality, a bad conversationalist, I don’t know, it could be anything. But it must be something if you didn’t get laid for 10 plus years. I can’t fathom being on that long of a dry spell.”

    Rather condescending. I believe feminism fools men of intellect who have enough brains to be lead astray. Psychological problems can’t happen with stupid people. Men who get fooled (proven by recovery) are the same men who have civilized potential, who prefer to do more than hump, who would choose to contribute to culture and economics and politics and BE MORE as a foundation to having more. Just getting laid for ten years should get old to a man of potential, someone able to reason and construct something of value. I can’t fathom getting just laid for ten years and thinking that’s enough. It turns out, to us thinkers, that the more than getting laid is not being friends or partners with our women, as endless fiat money and government activities have conditioned us from birth, but is being popular male sovereign patriarchs so we can build lives for ourselves, our families, and our friends commensurate with our potential as men. Natural cads, primitive as beasts in the field, feeding on the destruction of Western civilization are having a field day, and it turns out to be the best strategy in decline to get by for now, but it is nothing unto itself, and it does not prepare a man for claiming something greater when the time comes.

    Back to the original point of this post, the idea of ‘dating down’ is the idea of being a slave to these instinctively liberated corpulent or exhausted wenches. I have not gone over the referenced comment sections, but we understand the hamster. These women don’t want sex: they want your resources that the tax man leaves behind. We know what they are good for. Fuck them! We are liberated too. Sex only, bitches. lmfao


  41. “Hell, M3, you look like a stud. If I swung that way, I’d date you. But for all I know you might have some fatal flaws in person. Bad breath, B.O., a terrible personality, a bad conversationalist, I don’t know, it could be anything. But it must be something if you didn’t get laid for 10 plus years. I can’t fathom being on that long of a dry spell. ”

    I don’t believe you have to have some fatal flaw to end up in incel for years. I met a guy, incel for 7 years, but totally normal. Poor, but no BO, bad breath or bad talking skills. He says there is no mystery to why some men can’t get laid, it just can be that hard.


  42. SImon Grey:

    You are absolutely correct in your analysis that women want men of higher status and men want women who meet a certain threshold of traits (usually relating to looks).

    What you miss is how all this is affecting the SMP. Heartiste has gone through this, as has Susan Walsh, Dalrock and any number of other observers and commentators.

    6 men should be getting with and marrying 5 women. 5 men should be getting with 4 and 5 women. But it’s not working that way.

    The current SMP makes it much, much easier for women to achieve their SMP goals than for men. The average 5 woman can easily get a 7 or 8 man for an STR, and a 9 or 10 man for a pump and dump. It’s axiomatic that if she can’t get those top men for marriage or LTRs, and all she can get is sex, she’ll take the sex. Five minutes of alpha is worth 5 years of beta. You know this.

    Of course, this leaves the 4, 5 and 6 men right where they have been. They are left with 2s and 3s. Those women don’t meet the base threshold of attractiveness. Faced with the choice of marriage to a 2 or a ONS with a 3, the average 5 man will say “No thanks. Not worth it, not worth the effort, not worth the hassle. She’s not attractive enough to have sex with or to be married to. I’d rather jerk off to internet porn.”

    You say “Guys who are 6s have no business with women who are 9s, and vice versa.” I presume by this you mean that women who are 6s have no business with men who are 9s. Agreed. But as pointed out above, that’s not what’s happening, and I think you know this. 6 women ARE getting with 9 men — for STRs and ONSs. The men love it, because the women are no trouble at all, the men get everything they want (sex with minimal effort) and nothing they don’t want (commitment, the investment requirement), and there is always another woman ready to take her place if this one becomes the least bit of hassle.

    The 6 women don’t love it, but it’s better than marriage to a 6 or 7 man to whom she isn’t really attracted, when she has had 9s and 10s for a night or three and they rocked her world. She doesn’t need that 7 man anymore for financial support; since she can live with her parents indefinitely, or with roommates. She lives off her do nothing make work HR job. She doesn’t need her SMP male counterpart, she certainly doesn’t want him, and there is no way in the world she is going to be willing to hitch her wagon for 50 odd years to him.

    So what are men doing? Well… Nothing. They are simply saying “If i have to settle for a 2 or a 3, that’s not attractive to me. If I have to get married to a 5, only to have her divorce me a few years later because she’s not haaaaaappy, I don’t want that either. Marriage? Out of the question on these terms.”

    That’s what you’re missing, Simon.


  43. Another thing:

    I absolutely agree that men aren’t entitled to sex. I absolutely agree that a man is not entitled to a 9 or a 10 woman unless he brings equivalent value to the table. I absolutely agree he’s got to earn it if he wants it.

    By the same token, women are learning (the hard way in most cases) that they aren’t entitled to investment or commitment. Women need to learn that they can’t spread their legs and secure a man’s undying love. Women need to learn that if it’s commitment from a worthy man they want, they will need to bring more than two tits, a hole and a heartbeat to the table. More particularly, and getting right to the point, no woman is entitled to marriage to a hot alpha stud millionaire. But too many women think they ARE entitled to exactly that — a hot alpha stud millionaire who comes gift wrapped with a ring and a date.

    The women at HUS and other places are there mainly for one reason: they are able to get alphas for sex, but not much more than that. They are there because they are unable to secure commitment from an attractive alpha man.


  44. @ DETI

    ***BRILLIANT*** summation of the entire connundrum. Gonna have to see if i can squeeze that into the monster post im writing. But your summation is exactly what it all boils down to.

    The only area i would disagree with (and it’s purely semantics but) is the ages where you stated:
    “6 men should be getting with and marrying 5 women. 5 men should be getting with 4 and 5 women.”

    because i believe that it is actually women who should be ranked 1 stop higher than men upon getting together if LTR is the goal, so that as a womans rank declines by age and a mans appreciates by age/charm/etc.. the ranks even out and woman is still happy with her mate and man doesn’t feel like going out to find a replacement.

    Well known in the days of marrying off the daughters young, and encouraging their men to become better. Behind every great man was a great woman.. or so the fable went.


  45. jv: “The men were told to date average women , not plumpi 4′s and fives or sluts.. Most of the men in the sphere are not top tier, they’re average or lower otherwise they wouldn’t be seeking advice. The problem is that women and MEN don’t know their smp or whether they are alpha, beta or omega. This is especially true of guys who self describe as beta.”

    Agreed. Most men come to the manosphere because (1) their marriages either blew up or suck toilet water, or (2) they can’t get a date, much less get laid. They are beta men who got married for the wrong reasons. Or they are appeasing their wives and can’t figure out why it’s not working. Or they are betas/deltas/gammas who have no idea why they keep fucking up in this SMP, they overestimate their SMVs.

    jv: “Most married types settle into a rut where they are neither bringing the sexy alpha or the nurturing beta. So…greater omega? I could imagine that a decade of that would lead to frivilous divorce. The thing is, the guy comes into the sphere and figures it was because he was too beta. Wrong. Unless he was alpha going in, and after a few years settled into beta, the average beta will settle into omega.”

    Agreed. But realize that’s what women told us they wanted. They wanted “nice”. They wanted “nice guys who treat them right”. We took women at their word. Instead of understanding that we have to watch what women do, rather than believe what they say; we chose to listen to what women SAID they wanted rather than believe what women SHOWED us what they wanted.

    So what you’re really saying is: “You men fucked up. You listened to us women and you trusted us.”

    We won’t make that mistake again.

    “Women who date down are going to have a harder time loving the man because love and respect are very intertwined. Submissiveness is torturous for a woman who doesn’t respect her man.

    “Men are visual, and a woman who settles down, loses her looks and doesn’t nurture is the female equivallent of the greater omega. Like the the male version, she wont see her self that way.

    “Men and women should date within their smp, with a level on either side for leeway. Yes, there are women who over estimate their value. They will have cats. Yes, there are men who overestimate their value They will go their own way.”

    First two paragraphs: Agree. Men I think try to do this. I don’t know any 6 men shooting for supermodels. I don’t know any 7 men thinking they are going to marry Kate Upton. It’s women who are the problem here. Men are going their own way because they aren’t going to bust their asses for a 2 for marriage or a 3 or 4 for an ONS.


  46. Are there actual stable definitions for these terms? How is one to tell if they are Alpha, Beta, etc.?


  47. Anna:

    There are lots of definitions. The best I’ve seen are:

    1. Able to command sexual attention from desirable women; or
    2. Lives a life which is outcome independent (i.e. others’ responses to his life or women’s responses or reactions to his advances are irrelevant to his life and his POV.

    Beta:

    1. supplicates to women.
    2. operates in scarcity mentality.
    3. lives a life which is outcome dependent (i.e. calibrates his life to the responses and reactions of others
    4. unable to attract sexual attention from desirable women


  48. @Deti

    Ok, so that’s for Alphas/MGTOW and Betas.
    What about Omegas/Deltas? I don’t see these terms used as much, and haven’t found adequate definitions for these as of yet.

    Do they simply refer to men of a lower “status” than Betas, or perhaps men who can’t even talk to women? Just curious, and it seems like you’d know.


  49. I haven’t been able to read the comments yet, so if this has been said I apologize. The women saying this are just using a different phrasing of “Man Up”.


  50. Anna: read Vox Day’s Sociosexual Hierarchy.

    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2011/03/socio-sexual-hierarchy.html

    THis breaks it down into Alpha, Beta, Delta, Gamma, Omega, Sigma and Lambda.

    Here’s my take on it:

    Alpha: The life of the party. The college football quarterback, the asshole litigator lawyer, the superstar physician. He has sex with numerous women; or has the hot girlfriend and a piece on the side. If he marries, he can cheat on his wife (if he wants to) because he can — and usually gets away with it.

    Beta: The alpha’s sidekicks. He dates the alpha’s castoffs and ex girlfriends. He’s successful with women, but not as successful as the alpha. Not afraid to walk away from shitty relationships; but knows a good deal when he sees one. Doesn’t put up with shit from unworthy women, but will do what he can to keep a good one. ACcording to Susan Walsh, this type of man is ideal for LTRs and marriage (and I think she’s right about this). He is attractive, but not as attractive as the alpha. He has more alpha than beta at times; more beta than alpha at times.

    Delta: Most men fit into this category. They are classic Roissy betas. Their success with women is spotty and inconsistent. He would be very happy with a 5 or 6, but tries to shoot higher and almost always fails. If he gets a 7 or 8, he falls into hopeless supplication and explodes the relationship. He has the most potential for change and the most potential to move up to Beta status.

    Gamma: Weird dudes, dorks, dweebs, nerds, D&D players, theoretical physicists, comic book aficionados, hopeless video game addicts. Their relationship to women in general veers between odd fascination and complete contempt/hatred. Often seen muttering to themselves about their mistreatment at the hands of women, but completely oblivious on what to do about it. They overthink everything and are so introspective they have no healthy way to relate to the world. They are often deltas who have regressed due to complete failure with women. Examples: The men portrayed on “The Big Bang Theory”.

    Omega: They are the 1s and 2s of the male world. Hopelessly ugly or completely socially inept. They are truly the unfortunate social losers. They have not the first idea how to relate to other human beings.

    Sigma: The attractive loner, the lone wolf, the rebel. He shows up at a party with a 10 woman no one has ever seen before. He has few male friends, the ones he has are also sigmas. Is the only one who can make fun of and infuriate the alpha. The reason he is below the alpha on this scale is because he has no social status, but he doesn’t care. Lots of people know who he is, but no one really understands or “gets” him. Examples: John Wayne. Gary Cooper. Wolverine. Bruce Wayne/Batman.

    Lambda: Gay men.


  51. @ Deti, it works both ways. Women get a lot of conflicting messages. Be sexy or slutty and you’ll get a relationship. Be nice and feminine and you’ll get a relationship. The fact is, it’s a ballance and a dance of timing. And luck. We have to bring the female alpha and beta too. (Seductive and feminine.) An unattractive feminine wall flower is still going to have cats.


  52. @ Deti
    And women also fall into the omega trap in marriage. In modern times, men divorced over this until about the eighties when divorce laws changed. I suspect that a lot of the womens movement gained traction because it was apparent in the culture that men were divorcing their middle aged wives to marry their younger affair partners. In other words the men weren’t haaaaapy.

    The laws have seen men not frivilously divorcing like they were, but now we have women doing it. It behooves us not to be a civilization of greater beta’s.


  53. @ JV:

    “Women get a lot of conflicting messages. Be sexy or slutty and you’ll get a relationship. Be nice and feminine and you’ll get a relationship.”

    You know, I’d have a much, much easier time buying this if I didn’t see women racking up Ns of 10, 20, 30 and up before they reach age 30, with only a smattering of relationships to show for it.

    So, um, how many versions of Alpha McGorgeous and his frat buddies does our average college coed have to sleep with in 4 to 6 years of higher education before she figures out they only want to fuck her?

    How many times does Fuckbuddy Rockbanddrummer, and the guitarist, and the bass player, and the lead singer, and the keyboardist, and the rhythm guitarist, and the fatass roadie, have to boink a girl silly before she realizes that having their DNA running down her legs is all she is ever going to get from these men?

    How many one night stands does it take before it finally dawns on our average 26 year old junior sales executive that, hmmmm, you know, this whole “spread your legs for him and he’ll propose marriage to you” isn’t working so well for her?

    How many, jv? Five? 10? 15? How many different hot guys does she have to go home with and then Walk/Drive of Shame it home the next morning before she gets it?

    “The fact is, it’s a ballance and a dance of timing. And luck. We have to bring the female alpha and beta too. (Seductive and feminine.) An unattractive feminine wall flower is still going to have cats.”

    Seductive and feminine are not mutually exclusive. Seductive IS feminine. All a woman has to do to get a man is:

    1. Don’t be fat.
    2. DOn’t be a bitch.

    Now, you might not get the man you want. You’ll have to compromise. But if you want Brad Pitt, you damn well better be Angelina Jolie.


  54. @ jv:

    “And women also fall into the omega trap in marriage. In modern times, men divorced over this until about the eighties when divorce laws changed. I suspect that a lot of the womens movement gained traction because it was apparent in the culture that men were divorcing their middle aged wives to marry their younger affair partners. In other words the men weren’t haaaaapy.”

    This is pure apex fallacy. Let me fix it.

    SOME MEN divorced when their wives got fat and bitchy. TOP, APEX ALPHA MEN were divorcing middle aged wives to marry younger affair partners.

    JV, only the very top men, top 15% or thereabouts, can get concurrent multiple sex partners. Your average beta schlub isn’t getting sex outside his marriage, no way no how. It just isn’t happening in any reality.

    But on the other hand, any woman — ANY WOMAN — a 4 or above in attractiveness can get sex anytime she wants. Doesn’t matter if she is married or single or divorced. If she wants sex, she can get it. There are plenty of men who have no qualms or misgivings whatsoever about screwing married women; and no shortage of married women looking for extracurricular fun. All she has to do is dress to the nines, walk into the nearest bar, and announce “Who in here is down to fuck right now?” And she can select the most attractive man who presents to her.

    This is too easy. Sorry JV. You’ll have to do better than that.


  55. Deti, the thing is, young women DO get relationships this way. They fall into some pretty bad habits thinking that they can pick or choose commitment this way too. As they get older, this doesn’t work as well, and eventually, not at all. And as they get older, the boys are now men, and have a say or two about whom is in charge of commitment. Still, society is not the manosphere. Yet. There are still women in there 30’s and 40’s that I know of who are successful with this strategy. Not as successful as when they were younger, but successful none the less. The red pill has not penetrated far enough into society yet.

    No apex fallacy. In this day and age, it is women divorcing. Back in the day, it was men. It is what it is.


  56. As for betas not getting sex outside of marriage, you’re comparing apples and oranges. Beta’s TODAY might have a tough time of it, but not in decades past.it was the beta’s not the alphas who were divorcing and then MARRYING their mistresses.


  57. I’ve lost a comment to the ethers so I’ll try again. While it’s true that beta men today would have difficulty seeking women on the side, this was not the case for beta men in decades past. It wasn’t alphas MARRYING their mistresses.


  58. “No apex fallacy. In this day and age, it is women divorcing. Back in the day, it was men. It is what it is.”

    jv, currently, women are causing at least 75% of all divorces in this country, either through adultery or “no-fault”, “irreconcilable differences” divorce.

    Are you really saying that up until about 1970, MEN were causing at least 75% of all divorces through fault of some kind (because no fault didn’t exist)? Do you have statistics to back this up? States and researchers have gathered and analyzed statistics on marriage and divorce going back at least 100 years; so you ought to be able to tell us if there’s evidence that supports your claim.

    Without that evidence, I am simply not going to believe that of all divorces up until 1970 in the US, 75% of them were caused by men either cheating on their wives to marry Bunny the hot secretary, or engaged in violent physical abuse, or habitual substance abuse, or deserting their wives. I just don’t believe it. Since you are the one making the claim, the onus is on you to produce evidence to support it.

    “As for betas not getting sex outside of marriage, you’re comparing apples and oranges. Beta’s TODAY might have a tough time of it, but not in decades past.it was the beta’s not the alphas who were divorcing and then MARRYING their mistresses.”

    Are you seriously telling me that before 1970, there was a sizable percentage of ordinary beta men, fat schlubs, middle managers, and insurance salesmen, and nebbish tax lawyers going out, getting mistresses, and then leaving wives to marry mistresses? SERIOUSLY? This claim is patently ridiculous.

    jv, you need to stop watching Mad Men. Not all men circa 1965 were dashingly handsome and charming New York City advertising executives.


  59. No apex fallacy. In this day and age, it is women divorcing. Back in the day, it was men. It is what it is.

    jv: Today, more than 75% of all divorces are caused by or forced by women, including fault and no fault divorces. Are you seriously telling us that pre-1970, 75% of all divorces were caused by men in fault divorces (i.e. cheating, real physical abuse, substance abuse or abandonment)? Remember, there was no “no fault” divorce in wide usage before 1970. Think about what you’re saying here: a 50% overall divorce rate caused overwhelmingly through male misconduct. Really?

    “As for betas not getting sex outside of marriage, you’re comparing apples and oranges. Beta’s TODAY might have a tough time of it, but not in decades past.it was the beta’s not the alphas who were divorcing and then MARRYING their mistresses.”

    This is ridiculous. Are you really saying that pre 1970, Pete the Plumber, nebbish Tim the Tax Lawyer and working stiff Joe Lunchbox were out there banging Bunny the hot secretary? Seriously? And these uber betas were leaving their wives to marry Bunny?

    Seriously, you need to stop watching Mad Men. Not all men circa 1965 were Brylcreemed, dashingly handsome NYC advertising executives.


  60. Deti, I haven’t even seen an episode of mad men, so no, I’m not going off of that. I’m gen x, I lived through this stuff. Saw with my own eyes what was going on with the parents of my friends as well as what was going on in the culture at the time. And that was at the tail end of it. And no, these guys were not rich charming GQ types.

    Yes, the culture has changed that much. There used to be a saying among woman where I live. That they were the “First Wives”. That they were the ones who scrimped and saved and stood steadfast during the building up years of their husbands careers, only to be tossed aside for some young and spoiled younger model. And we aren’t talking wall street brokers.

    Case in point, my ex husband’s father. 5’7 middle aged mechanic in the armed forces,six kids. Family did not live on base. Wife worked the farm and raised these kids on a shoe sting. When he retired, he sold real estate, He met someone, and divorced. They never made it to the altar though. The stories of how these kids resented and tortured this woman……..

    As for the ultra traditional farm wife of six children, any guesses on to how she became a feminist?

    As for dad, he wasn’t going to let his kids get in the way of his access to love again. He just stopped seeing them.


  61. jv:

    I believe that’s your experience. I don’t believe your experience is generally applicable. Doesn’t line up with what we know about men and women. Moreover, it’s simply insane to think that some nebbish, average guy is going to even have the opportunity to get sex outside his marriage AT ANY TIME. It’s silly. Men are much, much more sexually available to women than women are to men.


  62. Deti, it’s been tackled a few times in the sphere that assortive mating has changed. Even up until the eighties, comparitive assortive mating was in effect, though it was changing. The smp/mmp was usually the same market. These days it is not. And assortive mating by similar value is a thing of the past. And yes, average guys had girlfriends. Though it was harder for nerds. One of the things that I’ve seen change is that nerds used to pair up with chubby bossy girls. Now the chubby bossy girls are single, but hook up with higher value guys.


  63. Hell, even some omegas could get action on the side back then. If you feel inclined, check out an old interview called eight and a half minutes with Robert Crumb. (I wouldn’t watch the whole thing unless you’re willing to wash your brain with bleach.) I haven’t watched this one, but it looks like clips of a longer interview that I once watched. Once was enough,lol. But take a good long look at this guy.

    He draws underground comics. Thing is, back in the day, he was on wife number two, had kids and an open marriage because fidelity was a problem for him. He’s not rich or famous or alpha or charismatic and good looking. I suspect that in this day and age, he’d have to be a rich software developer to live the same life. I’m not suggesting that this was the norm, but in an smp where this guy can get married and have girl friends………


  64. jv: I admire your tenacity. Unfortunately, it doesn’t make you correct. You are never, ever going to convince me that most divorces before 1970 were caused by nebbish little nerdy dudes with horn rimmed glasses and pocket protectors because they had a piece on the side. No. Way. In. Hell.


  65. @deti

    Hey, thanks for the definitions before. They were very helpful!
    Didn’t want you to think I’d forgotten… :)


  66. Fair enough Deti. Though how we see betas are different. I just see them as normal guys.

    I wonder if in the future gen z will say the same thing to gen y and the millenials about the women of today.


  67. Funny, today someone commented on my post “Top 10 ways to LOSE a Man” posing the following question:
    “So rampant hypergamy really does mess up the female mind?
    ( just read your post on your mental issues.)” it was posted by “BB” and that is all I know about this person.

    I wasn’t really sure what the actual question or observation was. Dating down is a concept I don’t really get actually. So, I should go for poor ugly dudes and guys should go for slutty fat chicks? That is very much against the nature of evolution?

    Does this imply… marry or date down, then cheat and produce children with those “above” your class? Otherwise human will eventually turn into dumb underachieving cows. That is not really an equation for survival.

    3M, you have any suggestions, thoughts or ideas about what BB meant in the comment?


  68. I’ll answer this now and 3MM can come in to do clean up.

    What BB meant by rampant hypergamy is women both punching way too high over their own sexrank, and simply not seeing the good in joe average.

    Example.

    Guy’s hypergamy (whatever the term) is based on visual cues of youth and fertility. We are driven to get the healthiest women for our seed. Now most guys in the ave. to above ave. class (5-7 range) are happy to settle down with an equal 5-7. While we’d love to get the supermodel, and we’d really like the cute girl next door, we’re happy with plain jane as long as she’s not rolling in extra pounds and can act like a cute and bubbly girl that’s really interested in us and likes having sex with us.

    For women, hypergamy has gone haywire. Many women overestimate their own rank, refuse to even speak to men of their equal rank, and demand the best possible. Joe Average, with a decent job, no debt, his own place, average looks.. gets passed over daily by all women at or above his rank because they’re looking for gorgeous alpha playboy billionaire philanthropist. This is where the ‘date down’ theory comes into play. The really low on the totem women in the 2-4 range would LOVE to end up with this guy. Just like the introverted nerd would LOVE to end up with the schools head cheerleader.

    One is marketed as unrealistic (nerd/cheerleader), one is not (really low girl/average guy).

    I think BB was trying to make the point that if hypergamy wasn’t messing your mind up, you’d have easily turned one of those super short relationships you had into a lifetime thing. You just kept looking for something more? I dunno.

    Many girls today feel entitled to the tall, dark, handsome, super attractive, make your girlfriends jealous, swoon, 6pack abs, thick luxurious hair, perfect teeth, beeming smile, piercing eyes, etc… it’s like all girls regardless of their rank are shooting for some fictional guy from a vampire novel hoping to be the special Bella snowflake that he will choose.

    Just like the nerd realizes the cheerleaders rightful place is on the arm of the captain of the football team, so too must all women realize that for a guy with that many options to sack them to end up with a woman, she’s going to be both beautiful and feminine and offer him something extraordinary that he won’t get from PlainJane.

    I blame vampire literature for fucking up the sensibilities of women. I was about to say teens, but my ex was 36 and she showed just as much maturity as a 16 yr old regarding Vampire Diaries.

    This video explains BB’s thoughts on womens minds being messed up thanks to hypergamy gone crazy.



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